Healthcare should never be privatised

Update: An edited version of this post was posted in my column in  Malaysian Insider .(IJN should not be taken over).

Malaysiakini  reported that IJN is to be bought over by listed company Sime Darby and the government has given its greenlight for the deal.

As a healthcare provider, I am worried by the proposed privatisation of IJN .

After IJN was setup, the cardiac unit in KL General Hospital (now called Hospital Kuala Lumpur) was shifted to IJN and there was no more cardiac unit in KL. (Of course, Universiti Hospital and Hospital UKM still have their own units, but these are teaching hospital and the scope is slightly different)

In the past, patients with heart problems could go to KLGH and get totally free treatment, including cardiac procedures and operations. Since the establishment of the IJN, patients have to pay, even though it is still cheaper than outside, it is many folds more expensive than the good old days when the cardiac unit was in KLGH.

Poor patients can apply for waiver of fees theoretically, but many old people  are illiterate or too ill(these form the majority of the poorer class) and it is really a hassle to them to apply for waiver.

Those cardiac patients who belong to the middle class have to pay a fortune to have treatment there, even though it is still cheaper than outside Medical centres.

Back to the issue of privatisation of healthcare. I did a research report a few years ago on the privatisation of health care and the proposed national Health Financial System , and this report is free to anyone to download and is available at the links below  the mast-head of my blog.

In the report , I wrote:

If the proposed privatization of government hospitals takes place after the setting up of the NHFS, the expenses of these hospitals are foreseen to increase tremendously and hence NHFS payout to these hospitals will be much more than what the government is spending on healthcare presently.

For the past decade, government expenses on healthcare has increased (though by world standard it is still low) partly because of the increased expenditure on the privatized services of certain sectors of the public healthcare.

For example, in 1993, the procurement of medicine for government hospitals and clinic (medical store) was privatized and the cost of medicine doubled the following year. In 1996, following the privatization of five more areas including laundry, cleaning, equipment maintenance, waste disposal and facilities

maintenance, the costs for these services skyrocketed from Rm140million to RM450 million the following year.4

Hence, the privatization of government hospitals, after the proposed NHFS is set up, will definitely lead to skyrocketing of national healthcare expenditure.

I do not know the reason why IJN is to be taken over by a  listed company, but I do realise that the primary aim of the management of a listed company is to not only make profits, but with annual growth on that profit. Simply put, they need to make more and more profits as the years go by.

This will translate to higher health costs to those seeking cardiac treatment. The burden will be on the poor and the middle class. The poor can still apply for waiver, though as i have mentioned, a big proportion would not know how to go about it, either being illiterate or too weak and ill to do so. The middle class is the one that will be worse hit.

They will be hit by rising health costs as well as a general rise in standard of living, and they belong to a class that cannot seek exemption or waiver .

I do not buy the logic that there would be no increase in the charges after the taking over of IJN by this company. Just look at other examples. Many private hospitals once becoming listed, increase charges many times than before their listing. Just compare the health cost in the early 90s and now, you will get a rough idea of how much private hospital costs have gone up.

I strongly believe that healthcare,  water supply as well as education should not be privatised and should never be allowed to list. Once listed., it will become too profit orientated to provide affordable care and services.

The government is an authority which derives its mandate from the people, and has certain responsibilities to the people who elected them. One such responsibility is to provide clean drinking water, an essential thing in life, and another basic responsibility is to provide affordable healthcare to the people. They cannot just pass these responsibilty to someone else whom the people has no direct control and to whom  profit and profit only matters.

There is plenty of scope for improving our healthcare delivery system by our government. WHO recommends that a nation should spend 7% of its GDP on healthcare annually, and in Malaysia, we are spending about 5% only . 2 extra % of GDP would be more than 10 billions, and these should be spent on healthcare system, providing affordable healthcare to people, instead of helicopters, submarines and PKFZ etc.

I appeal to the government to reconsider this privatisation of IJN and I really hope that this is not going to be the beginning of privatisation of our government hospitals , which will increase our healthcare cost tremendously, translating to a much higher healthcare costs for each of us to bear.


30 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Peter Yew
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 11:58:09

    Both the government and Sime Darby will be immensely unpopular over this decision. The IJN is the pride and joy, a pearl and a national treasure that the government must truly hold on to, not just for the sake of the needy patients but to keep its good work and research ongoing. The decision is entirely a business one and the government must look beyond ringgit and sen. It must see the virtue of its social work that has thus far being heavily eroded. One day the government will be nothing but a head without a heart or a body to serve the people. Of what us then is that sort of government to us?

    If the sale has not been inked yet I urge the government to withdraw its offer to sell IJN to Sime Darby or any other corporation. Otherwise it may as well sell off every government hospital since healthcare is recession-proof and a money spinner.


  2. klm
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 12:50:04

    (1) Malaysia has adopted the American hospital administration system. Look at America. They have one of the most heartless and uncaring system in the world. In the US, if you have no insurance, you are not admitted.

    (2) And BTW, If you want to see how Sime Darby will operate IJN, look at Subang Medical Center which owned they owned.

    (3) Sime Darby also owned a medical insurance company. Admission to Subang Medical is much easier if you have medical insurance from this Sime Darby company.

    (4) For Sime Darby, it is not just about owning medical center. It is the whole damn industry.

    (5) Finally, Sime Darby is owned by PNB.

    See the point.


  3. AY
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 13:24:03

    Sima Darby Healthcare previously Subang Jaya Medical Center. The medical bills is not affordable to most lower and middle income class and I foresee more people will fall into this category.

    So the civil servants will still enjoy as per status quo under the pension scheme as opposed to those contributing EPF.

    Perhaps, the lower and middle income class should stick to 11% EPF contribution because when we retire and our hearts fail us, we would be paying a lot for our health.


  4. CYC
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 14:02:39

    Business ventures aim to make impressive return to shareholders while IJN’s main objective is to provide healthcare for the benefits of rakyats without the burden of making big bucks (prudent cost allocation is a must). how do we reconcile the two contrasting objectives? Segregate into one rich and one poor sectors? If yes, how is the mechanism works?

    Looks like our political leader is learning fast from US as klm said. US is failed model to follow as far as healthcare provision is concern. Why are we follow blindly? Privatisation is no magic to transform every indiustries.

    Some radical approach seems needed to stop this unthinkable move. Surely there are some who may not agree, but a mass protest by way of signature campaign or even demonstration in a peaceful manner should be considered. Alternatively, an anti Sime Darby campaign through internet such as boycott its product or service world wide should be workable as their business covers many countries.


  5. klm
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 14:26:44

    BTW. The Insurance Company owned by Sime Darby is ING Insurance. This is a major player in medical insurance and personal insurance.


  6. nisha alia
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 14:47:01

  7. Rhan
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 16:20:15

    Is this a healthcare issue or a politic issue? Probably Sime Darby would improve the service to the patient and provide better package to our excellent doctor?

    The poor can’t afford it? You shouldn’t complain, as long as you have the opportunity to expose to better service and better environment, you should acknowledge your appreciation.

    The best part is government promised no increase in fee.

    Am I wrong to says anything touch by this devil will turn into shit? Don’t ever allow this devil to have any says on matter relate to our education. The Chinese must preserve this stand even if the smart brain label us as racist or chauvinist.


  8. ahoo
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 16:53:14

    Thank you Dr for your views. Well, as we travel and learn from the many countries that are well managed, in particular the privatisation of any govt owns assets, we can almost always see that the fees imposed are within the acceptable rates.

    Which means that the privatisation itself is good way for the govt to be relief of carrying on a burden to the tax payers. But in Malaysia, we always give away priced assets to govt related cronies and let them tax the public joes for the many decades. So in the days ahead the Sime group will have the world’s largest oil palm estates, healthcare, property developments, auto, insurance, logistics, security and many others including banks maybe.

    Nothing wrong with that if they compete openly with transperancy but many transacted deals with govt is always protected by the OSA and the public joes will be milked dry when they have a heart that need to be attended in the days ahead. Of course we have Sime healths insurance that we invest in if any of us are fearful that our good heart will fail us one of this day. Another way of making money from left, right and center. Wow, better buy more of Sime’s shares while it is still low now and retire with high dividend and returns.


  9. klm
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 17:30:37

    News is that takeover is postponed indefinitely. So, no issue for now.


  10. A true Malaysian
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 17:57:09

    IJN is operated by IJN Holdings Sdn Bhd, which is wholly-owned by the Ministry of Finance….The Malaysian Insider

    Funny, why under Ministry of Finance and not Ministry of Health?


  11. A true Malaysian
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 18:32:25

    This is the typical way how is our government functioning. On ‘ad hoc’ basis.

    Yesterday announced ‘ok’, today announced ‘put on hold’ until detailed study done.

    Shouldn’t it be detailed study done first before announcing?

    Just points for you guys to ponder.


  12. klm
    Dec 19, 2008 @ 23:29:04

    Curious. How come no statement from Gerakan and Koh Tsu Koon. Not informed again?

    Only Dr Hsu made any noise in press.


  13. Monk
    Dec 20, 2008 @ 21:55:23

    Dr Hsu,

    I quite agree with a view that the Cabinet’s decision to put on hold is a ploy to allow the passing of the KT by-election and revive the discussion or endorsement at a later date.

    All sensible and caring Malaysians should object to the privatisation of IJN. IJN set up in 1992, the institute has served some 17,920 patients in 2004. Some 82 percent or 14,694 were civil servants, 17 percent (3,046) were private patients and even 1 percent foreigners.

    IJN is undergoing an expansion program besides infrastructure, also increasing the beds by 20 per cent. The costs could have escalated though originally mentioned at RM100 million in 2005.

    And IJN has like Dr M said performed well. Ten years ago, it was reported IJN received 50,000 outpatients a year and 8,000 warded patients but now the figure has surpassed 12,000 outpatients a year and 12,000 ward patients.

    It will be tragic to allow IJN be privatised knowing what privatisation has done to Malaysians. If the government wants to abdicate so much and many responsibilities for feeble reasons, I don’t see why Malaysians should support BN anymore. If BN government cannot manage competently, it’s time to trigger another political tsunami at the next GE.



  14. A true Malaysian
    Dec 20, 2008 @ 22:10:14


    Both Gerakan, MCA and MIC can do something good after tsunami 308, yet no guts to do.

    Let the bigger tsunami sweep them away next round.


  15. romerz
    Dec 21, 2008 @ 03:23:39

    A true Malaysian,

    If P36-Kuala Terengganu reverts to PAS then UMNO/BN is a good as dead.

    If it remains with UMNO, then sadly Malaysia is not ready for change and we have only ourselves to blame.

    No thanks to those people who gripe about UMNO but are unwilling to back up their words with actions.

    Sorry if I start sounding like monsterball. Talk talk talk but when shove comes to push, they tolerate being pushed.

    And nothing wrong with that for I’ve been pushed before. But after a few times by the same person? Then it is time to readjust your tolerance level.

    Apparently they are better humans than I am for having such a high tolerance level and foresight of a better Malaysia in the future.

    Me? I’m not clairvoyant and all I know is that this country is screwed up and it will remain screwed up unless we can get rid of UMNO and their ketuanan shit! (forgot to mention their turning governance and social responsibility in a $$$ enterprise.)

    I think you know where I’m heading with this tone. Very soon, I might have to oppose Doc despite his being a good man (too bad about his loyalties).


  16. Damocles
    Dec 22, 2008 @ 21:49:52

    Looks like all essential & profit making public service organisations are being privatised to cronies.
    When they wanted something, the government (or rather our so-called) leaders will promise the sky but when they have it your sky will disappear.
    Now, once the privatisation takes effect (and it certainly will) the poor (meaning lacking in wealth) patients who have a heart attack and are being treated by IJN, will have another heart attack when they receive the bill! So, perhaps they will continue to be a patient of IJN and never get out alive!
    Dr Hsu, if you’re truly people centric, you should do your best to take Gerakan out of the BN.
    And make very sure that they’ll never be in power again!


  17. A true Malaysian
    Dec 22, 2008 @ 22:37:14


    I know patience or tolerance level has its limit. Most of us are already near to the limit. It is not just us like that, grassroots of BN as well, Dr. Hsu inclusive.

    Malaysian policies maker, namely the Cabinet, is simply without check and balance at all. Responsibility and accountability are missing since our old grand old man time. All because ‘collective responsibility’ was introduced during his time.

    If PR takes over, this ‘collective responsibilty’ should be thrown into dustbin. If not, the same problems will recur over time.

    Monsterball talks a lot. If one observes carefully, every comments of his always has the word ‘Umno’. Maybe he knows something else that we don’t see or aware of. Just that he may be lacking in expressing in ear-soothing way, resulting in many misunderstood him as having ulterior motives. I inclusive, honestly.

    Monsterball, I am just being frank here, worry that there may be another outburst after this.

    Romerz, Dr. Hsu is wise enough to make his own assessment and we should give undivided supports to him, as a driving force to keep him going.

    Just be a little bit more optimistic. Who knows MCA, MIC and Gerakan will spring surprises to us in near future?

    Meanwhile, just contribute our thoughts in blogosphere. Its influence is significant. Go sjsandteam blog to share your thoughts, they are getting popular each day.

    Our intentions are not to belittle anyone but solely for the good of Malaysia.


  18. monsterball
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 02:19:29

    Thanks True Malaysian for your concern.
    Yes…being a businessman for 4o years…mixing with all sorts of people….and deeply concern about the unfortunate…..poor and helpless in Malaysia….I have watched how UMNO govern and under Mahathir onwards….the UMNO is no more the same …as before Mahathir.
    Mahathir keeps disuniting the races..and even divide and rule his own race. That’s the lowest kind of politics you can fine anywhere in any developed and well off…educated country.
    Ofcourse…he is a bloOdy hypocrite and big time..corrupted PM.
    There are few UMNO…..MCA and Gerakan racialists here…talking like Malaysians…but love to live in a disunited country.
    Sadly……there are few so call ……Malaysian Chinese…..taking MCA and Gerakan languages… the delight of Doc Hsu??? I don’t know. Doc can be quite evasive…twisting and turning. That’s politics personality in him.
    I am who I am…what I am….and Doc should know me too well now…..but I do not like his “I may” ….with no clear straight forward message..who he may ask to leave again.
    His explanation…in Gerakan as an elected member….not for politic is the most ridiculous reason I have ever heard.
    Justin said it well.. in his blog.
    I am sure Rhan and few others love to see Doc apply “I may” on me again.
    Back to UMNO….why Doc said… till you drop dead….and all our problems are caused by UMNO…why so difficult to understand?


  19. monsterball
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 02:49:38

    True Malaysia…..If you do not support changing Doc…please don’t try to convince Romerz…how wise Doc Hsu is.
    You are always….applying subtle defence for Doc…to stay in Gerakan.
    I am going to say…straight to you.
    Your style…you will have many friends…..but true good friends?? …difficult to get……because you are so diplomatically insincere.
    One moment you want Doc to leave Gerakan….now you tell Romerz…to leave him alone…he is a wise man.
    I say…Doc is a stubborn….selfish man.
    Don’t lump up his kind heated personality with his profession as ac doctor and his political career….which he denies he is a politician…….being an active member of Gerakan….is one reason….Justin and I are so stupid….cannot comprehend…..except you.
    Romerz is beginning to see more truths…please don’t confuse him.
    Frankly….you are quite a cunning bloke!


  20. A true Malaysian
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 09:22:11


    Apparently, you do not know Dr. Hsu well. Just ask ourselves, why we participate in this Forum? Why? For me, I was attracted by Dr. Hsu’s sincerity in his writings. I would think, other people as well.

    I am not sure your purpose in this Forum, but if I can read well, you are the only odd one around that keen to know more indepth a person, by provoking and name calling.

    Unlike all of us here, we are not so particular the indepth detail of each of the participants so long we contribute our thoughts. Of course, after some time, I am interested to know more Justin, Romerz and so on personally, but that is because of their sincerity in their comments that I found similarity with mine.

    But, for you, why so different? Only you can answer that.

    As for Dr. Hsu, he might has the reaction, what’s the hell, by sharing my thoughts through my blog here, I subject myself to public scrutiny. Does it worth my efforts of doing so.

    I am not Dr. Hsu, but Dr. Hsu is just a human like you and me and should be respected to determine his own destiny.


  21. A true Malaysian
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 11:31:38


    You commented,

    “True Malaysia…..If you do not support changing Doc…please don’t try to convince Romerz…how wise Doc Hsu is.
    You are always….applying subtle defence for Doc…to stay in Gerakan.”

    “One moment you want Doc to leave Gerakan….now you tell Romerz…to leave him alone…he is a wise man.
    I say…Doc is a stubborn….selfish man.”

    Come on monsterball, romerz is an adult with his own thinking, don’t underestimate him. But, on the other point of view, don’t all of us here with the intention to convince people of our thoughts?

    You sound to me like a ‘commandant’ with ‘no soldier’ willing to obey. But anyway, I still wish to congratulate you to be able to flourish in Mahathir era.

    I hope you can clear whatever ‘perception’ people have on you. I know such argument is going nowhere, just my last piece of comment I throw on you, monsterball.


  22. Dr Hsu
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 12:02:51

    Romerz and A True Malaysian

    My stand is very clear. I am all for the party to go back to its ideology of a fair and equal society. I have never twist athis fact unlike some agent provocateur who is trying to say I did.

    I campaiged to be a CC on this promise of asking the leadership to go back to its ideology, back to the people and the grassroots.

    So far, we had only 2 meetings and I have voiced out against ISA and NEP, and that we should have abolished both acts. The whole party knows my stand of saying that UMNO cannot be changed and if UMNo cannot be changed , we have to come out of BN to pursue our ideology.

    I have been consistent in my blog , my writings on these points. Go back to read the 800 posts that I have written and the comments that I made in numerous blogs, it is consistent with my stand and everything is in Black and white… There is no such thing as twisting and turning.

    I have asked people to support Pakatan in PP by election because i thought that would lead to a change… I was disppointed like my Malaysians that 916 was an empty promise .. I have wirtten an article in malaysian Insider about 916 and my hope that it can lead to change…

    I have never supported the divisive and racial politics in my blog, my writings and my talking with friends and members in or out of the party.

    I am a heretic voice in Gerakan. But it is a good thing that Gerakan can tolerate dissent..

    DAP parliamentarians. They voice out views opposite to the ruling party, but should we ask them to leave Malaysia? A big No of course. Just because i ask Gerakan leaders to leave BN and not to be associated with the race policies of UMNo , does it make me an UMNO man? I have never say anything good about UMNO, and logic means that UMNO should hate this blogger and would wish him to leave BN as soon as possible.

    The agent provocateur has an agenda.

    I have mentioned that 3 groups like to see me leave without succedding influencing Gerakan out of BN..

    The first is my true friends, like romerz and A True Malaysian ad many others, in the civil society who really like to see a btter Malaysia.

    the second is those against me in Gerakan who see me a s stumbling blocks to their continued wish to associated with UMNO.

    The third group is SB agents and UMNO members who would want to see the biggest dissenting grassroot voice in component parties (as mentioned by Straits Times in Singapore” which had mentioned my name some time back ) to ask the components to move out.

    WHo is in this group is plain obvious… A former police officer who had worked in SB told me that these agents can be old, young, etc, but one thing they would pretend to be antigovernmet in order to achieve their aims..

    they do not talk sese or logic but a few of them are probably in the blogsphere trying to achieve certain objectives… Some may even be under direction to get a few thorns out of component parties..They twist and turn the facts….they twist and twist and scold other commentators to go away..Even when a person stand is consistent, they will say things to the contrary.

    Some of them are trained by British officers in the early merdeka days. these people like to wear hat, smoke cigars, wear a vest while sipping coffee in a coffee shops/cafe. These people must be around 70 years old now. They still take on cases on an ad hoc basis, because like CIA agents , once you are agent , you can always be called upon to do the work required.

    The danger of this group is the phrase they ” pretend to be ghosts to catch ghosts”, as the colloquial term goes..

    I have been very consistent and i have promised a time frame to get Gerakan out of BN if BN does not change… My views are similar to those in the civil society… And I am of the view that without chnage , Malaysia cannot advance.

    Let us take a hypothetical case. if Malaysia supports a security council of UN ‘s resolution to attack a certain country “A”, , .and if a person”M” does ot agree with this UN position and Malaysian is still in UN, does this mean that this person “M” should immediatly leave Malaysia, without trying to exert some influence to get Malasyia to change its stand first?

    Same logic applies as I have mentioned many times but to this agent provocateur , he would not listen to hs logic because he has a job to do…

    Did I ever ask people to support UMNO ? Look throught this blog. read every article. Why this agent wants this thorn to be removed?? ask yourself, dear readers.

    Many bloggers have privately communicated this suspicion to me… And that is why I am writing this to you, I have met this agent, smoking cigars, wearing a vest, wearing a hat.. exactly like what my former police friend told me..

    And so many blogs have banned him, those who wrote anti-government views, he slammed and disturned the blogs to chase away readers , so many bloggers have to ban him.

    I do not want to name name but i think you all know this person.

    Finally, romerz, my views and your views are very similar, and so there is no clash at all. Even When Gerakan is wrong, i would not defend the party, because i think people interest is more important…And when DAP is right, I have never criticised them just for the sake of criticism…


  23. klm
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 13:06:05

    Wow. I never know there are so much conspiracies in the blogs. I learned something today.


  24. Rhan
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 14:00:18

    Ah! I never know many blog ban this old fella, I still see him dancing to the tune of the racist at Rocky Bru site.

    Hsu, I thought SB is always good looking, youthful and writes elegantly? You mean an old fox with a shallow mind and stupid outlook can be a SB?



  25. monsterball
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 14:07:09

    hhhhhhhmmmmmm I wonder who this agent provocateur is..Doc is hinting.
    Like true Malaysian said…..I am the only one…not talking about the subject…I guess…I am most stupid of all here.
    It seem…one cannot say what wants feel….without being misunderstood.
    Ah well…most are so smart and so cultured and so refine…that I keep reading my message….I feel..trully odd man out.
    But who is this agent provocatuer Doc is saying all know whop he is.
    Surely not True Malaysia and surely not Romerz too…..coming along very well
    I suspect is JUSTIN!!!…hahhahahahahaha
    Me…most wise and most welcome commentator….by blog owner…impossible!!


  26. zztop
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 15:59:21

    I like the comments from Yee on Uncle Lim blog:-

    “AS i have already mentioned, MCA is no longer relevant in representing the chinese. Most of them are only interested in their own pockets and well being. Since when they are sincere in helping their community?? Maybe only during election time. They are all goners as far as rakyat is concerned.
    I have some respect for that OTK before he became president. Now I view him as TKO (talk co_k only). His actions of late proved that they care more of themselves than the community. The PKFZ and the IJN cases are the proof. Even that bum who control the Health Ministry dare not utter anything when those Umno greedy bums wanted to take over IJN. What hearts they have?? Or have they???
    Real sickening. 51+ years is enough.
    Hope rakyat will support PKR and whack these bums properly. “


  27. veonszu
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 16:37:58

    Interesting reveal. Didn’t know blogosphere can be that dangerous…

    Anyway, Dr. Hsu, it is very sad that the sentiment of “If you are not with me, then you are against me” is so widespread now that sometimes common sense has become so uncommon.

    The last thing that we want to have is a polarized Malaysia where the loyalties of its people lie with factional cult leaders and not Malaysia itself.

    The next three years are extremely critical to the well-being of Malaysia, let’s work together from within the system and within the party, I truly believe that everyone has a role to play, irrespective of which political divided one is from.


  28. cilipadi
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 17:46:05

    someone wrote,

    “Yes…being a businessman for 4o years…mixing with all sorts of people…”

    Let assume monsterball is 70 years now, first 30 years as agent….prov?


    siapa makan cili, dia rasa pedas


  29. EvanAlmighty
    Dec 23, 2008 @ 18:53:29

    BN or more precisely UMNO lead by a group of “business man”. We do not know when or what will be privatised for their sake of commersial interest but not for the public interest.


  30. klm
    Dec 24, 2008 @ 10:31:33

    I think you are overrating the SB. Yes, they had some very good phsy warfare people, during the Emergency period such as CC Too. However, the quality is no longer there. And you dont have to guess why.

    There is no way the old SB people are computer literate. We are giving them too much credit. The new one cannot even write properly in English.

    And dont ask me how I know.


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