Expert opinion versus truth

Someone,  the counsel for MACC,  mentioned at the TBH inquest that the Thai pathologist’s Thai degree is not recognised in Malaysia, thus implying that she was substandard.

Thailand had a number of good universities, maybe not in the league of Harvard or Yale, but certainly as good as any in Asia.

I remember in 1970 when I was a form 6  student and our interact club in school organised a trip to Thailand, under the sponsorship of Rotary clubs of both Penang and Bangkok. . We stayed at the then mayor ‘s house, a palatial building which until today was still very vivid in my mind. We were taken to various places , including universities such as Thammasat and Chulalongkorn . At that time, Malaysia had only one university but Thai had already several, and both the above mentioned universities were so impressive to us sixth formers.  The students spoke English too, with an accent different from us, but we could still understand each other and communicate.

Even today, some of the Thai universities are ranked high in Asia.  According to this website, Asian university ranking top 200 , the top ranked  Thai university, Mahidol University,  was ranked at No. 28 in Asia, whereas the best ranked university from Malaysia, University of Malaya, was ranked No. 42, just slightly ahead of second ranked Thai university,  Chulalongkorn. mahidol was also the best ranked outside China (Including Hong Kong), Japan, Singapore and South korea.

Of course, ranking per se may not mean anything except that they have attained certain reputation and certain acceptable standard, but it does serve as a guide as to where their education standard stands in the world. It is certainly not below Malaysia, even though it cannot compare with Hong Kong or Singapore, or Japan..

Malaysians must stop being the proverbial frog in the well.. They must not think that Malaysia is better than others.. We were better than most in Asia in the 60s, 70s; our economy were a few times that of South Korea in the 60s, by early 80s they had caught up, by now they are about 4 times bigger than ours. Our Univeristi Malaya was on par with University of Singapore and University of Hong Kong, which have grown to become world renown centres of learning while we have slided down the ladder so much that they are way ahead of MU now.

Malaysians must not think that we are the centre of the world. In fact, most people in the West did not know where was Malaysia in the 80s. When you travelled overseas then, and when you told people you were from Malaysia, they would inevitably ask whether you were from Singapore..  Credit must be given to The Old Horse for putting Malaysia in the world map, by lashing out like a mad dog on the west, so much so that people began to notice malaysia..Of course the money spent on mega projects like Twin Towers, dropping Proton cars in North poles, hosting Formula One race  etc etc attracted attention of the world. But these name recognition came at hefty expenses of the people’s purse..

The point i was driving at was that the Thai pathologist talked sense, and since she came to give a professional opinion, we should have respected her opinion and not try to put her down. Even if we do not agree with her, we can always get some other professionals to come and offer their professional opinion instead of trying to imply that she is substandard. An act which i think is very ungentlemanly.  Offering an opinion is the professional’s way of telling the most probable things that could have occurred , based on the belief and experience of  that professional; an opinion is just an opinion.. It is up to the Judge to decide which opinion is most likely to be  near the truth, taking into account the logic, the scientific evidence and the convincibility of the expert witness..

31 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. CYC
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 11:24:41

    How could u expect professional opinion base on evidence and logic to prevail in court when u have a counsel behave like an illiterate donkey. Is he trying to imply that ppl with lesser qualification has no legal right to litigate his case with someone with superior qualification? if that being the case, he should have no legal standing to preside over cases where the counsel had higher qualification than him. This Razak fler further bastardized our judiciary!

    On a different note, the Malay host who speaks Mandarin @988 morning talk show “Zhao Dian Shuo Ma” , Jamal was barred/suspended indefinitely. Reason : may MCA can provide the answer. Not long ago, the other host Hsu Guo Wei were also booted out due to reason best known to MCA, the ultimate owner of the radio station. Another example of how BN bastardize freedom of speech.

    In line with Ibrahim Ali’s style, may I say “Bastard, bastard, bastard” to “congratulate” MCA stylist sacking of the above duo.

    Like

  2. lkt-56
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 11:39:00

    I think we should not get too upset over the way the counsel tried to put down the pathologist. It is just a common strategy to rattle the witness. Part of the art of cross examination if you like. The counsel will know that at the end of the day, it is the judge and not counsel who decides on whether the witness is credible.

    That said, the strategy of trying to rattle a witness can sometimes backfire if the witness is calm and quick witted as in the case of Dr. Pornthip.

    Like

  3. CYC
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 11:55:57

    Ikt-56,

    If u deemed that as a strategy, now I know what to expect from Malaysia’s legal profession. Thank you for waking up from my dream.

    Like

  4. wisely
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 12:14:13

    But she said her university is top 5? Agree that professionalism is what we want and should look at.

    Any info on the ‘new’ constitution?

    LGE claim another operasi lalang is on the way.

    Looking at the current situation, its worrying.

    It could lead to something bad, i feel.

    Like

  5. Low Keing Hooi
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 12:26:13

    Its always the norm that an individual will only embarking on ‘personal attack’ (as he himself perceived he is better than others) when he himself has no substance to rebut others arguments. This will only exposed his inferiority to the public.

    As usual, it is the result of political involvement that hindered a fair trial. We can’t expect much from this proceeding. Besides, I was just received the news that our government is again tampering with the freedom of speech today by suspending a Malay DJ @ 988 chinese radio station (早点说马) who always discussing issues relating to the policies imposed by government.

    Reported at: http://www.merdekareview.com/news/n/14582.html

    Like

  6. Dr Hsu
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 13:33:29

    Fools never learn from past mistakes. IN the past, suspension of editors and so on made those who advocate freedom of speech angry and this anger has become part of the forces that formed the tsunami 308.

    Now they are doing it again.. Why, why can’t they think of the consequences of their action which will alienate further the intellectuals and the educated.

    ANyway, they are very good in shooting their own feet.

    Like

  7. klm
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 14:32:11

    By the way, Dr Porntip is listed by her peers as one of top 10 living forensic scientist in the world. The white skin govt consultant is no where near this. She is a world class scientist in her field. That is why the govt lawyers are afraid of her.

    I wonder why the govt did not hire Dr. Henry Lee, who is listed as the no 1. Dr. Lee wrote most of the procedures used in forensics lab around the world. But I guess Malaysian police decided not to follow the procedures.

    Like

  8. Dr Hsu
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 15:11:16

    Maybe Dr henry lee would testify that TBH did not die of suicide, so how can they use him?Just a thought!

    Like

  9. Ken
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 15:37:58

    The ang moh pathologist used by MACC is also used by the Msian govt to train Msian pathologists sent to him in U.K. So how can he testify freely when he has a lucrative business relationship with the Msian govt?

    He was all too willing to testify positively for MACC. For example he testified that from the position of the shoe it could not have been thrown down after the body. On what basis?

    Why did 4 pathologists engaged by MACC missed out the neck injuries? Simple. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    Like

  10. A true Malaysian
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 17:21:42

    Dr. Pornthip is one classic example of a person of integrity and honesty. To people like her, integrity and honesty are more important than anything else.

    It is suicidal for Abdul Razak Musa to come out with such silly line of questioning. He will be tagged with such stupidity for the rest of his life.

    Abdul Razak Musa is indeed a victim of circumstances where meritocracy is not being practised in the environment. We can see many professionals like doctors, accountants, engineers ….. of people like Abdul Razak Musa facing the same kind of predicaments. People have no confidence on these people, like in public hospitals, patients are asking for doctors other than a certain race.

    It is obvious which race I am talking about but some may not be matured enough to accept criticism, which for all intent, is for the good of all, never have any motive of being racist.

    I personally had an experience with a doctor of that race, and I can tell you, he is a good doctor. But, in a system with no meritocracy but ‘kulitocracy’ (l read somewhere this term), such good doctors and professionals fall victim like those pariahs. It is not being fair, but what to do?

    Like

  11. CYC
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 17:52:55

    It is pointless to discuss this laughable inquest process. The more pressing issue is what were the perceptions of Malaysians in general and politicians in particular in regards to this. Is there genuine interest especially from the ruling coalition to right the system ? I personally can’t see any. And most disturbing reality is the 2 Chinese majority parties, namely MCA & Gerakan are completely mute. Where goes your inherited thousands years civilization culture ? Perhaps what Ken said is correct, they are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    Politics has loss its rationale in our country. Self interest and benefits supersede all other considerations such the principles of civil society. Trust not politicians who act in hooligans manner. Crush them into irrelevance with your vote.

    Like

  12. Linken Lim
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 21:19:49

    Stupidity is demonstrated by the actions of Abdul Razak Musa:

    “Razak notes that Pornthip is not qualified as a forensic expert in Malaysia as the university from which she graduated is not recognised in Malaysia. Pornthip replies that the university is one of the top five in Asia.”

    “Razak puts it to Pornthip that Teoh strangled himself. He says that the other four doctors had found no such evidence of strangulation.”

    “Gobind stands up and asks Razak to demonstrate how one can strangle himself. Razak makes an attempt, to laughter from the gallery.”

    “Razak asks her how Teoh could be dead on the 14th floor (where the Selangor MACC office is located in Plaza Masalm, Shah Alam) but alive on the ground.”

    Razak: One against four……

    Razak: We work on majority.

    Stupid is as stupid does !

    Like

  13. chabalang
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 21:35:43

    The MACC counsel was just SHAMEFUL in his line of questioning – it reflects poorly on MACC as well as himself.

    Like

  14. Li Li Fa
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 21:58:25

    ARM’s tactic is to provoke, instigate, and ignite the emotional fire of P’tip. Lucky for her- she is an emotionally strong person, not perturbed at all and even asked whether he was a lawyer himself.

    What an embarrassing question from a foreign forensic doctor of high ASIAN standard? This reflects on the quality of the lawyer standing before her.

    I am sure many Malaysians stand by her side and want the truth to prevail in this TBH’s case. P’tip said that she represented the deceased not the living to the applause of many.

    Like

  15. disgusted
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 22:30:09

    Porntip was asked by the stupid whether she experience falling off a building. If I were her, I would retort back, asking the idiot, “Have you ever been push off a building?”

    Like

  16. kl_boy
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 23:12:40

    ‘digusted’ that was a good suggestion. I would love to see Razak’s reply on this🙂

    Like

  17. klm
    Aug 19, 2010 @ 23:59:30

    With such stupidity on display, I wonder how investors can have confidence in this country. I personally have no faith in the court system after reading this proceeding, that is if I have already not lost confidence. Why must these people keep demonstrating their stupidity? This is something I cannot understand. Where are their pride and self esteem?

    Like

  18. Amin
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 01:17:47

    As a rough guide as to the qualities of UM grads Vs NUS grads, my son who was a graduate of NUS, was first employed in 2007 by Std Chartered Bank based in Singapore working in the global forex office amongst international staff. Another graduate of UM was employed at the same time, and both he and my son started with the same salary.

    By 2008 upon one year’s service, they were given a raise in salary based on the appraisal of the boss who was a British. The UM grad was given a monthly rise of S$50, a far cry from my son’s whopping S$800.

    Imagine what happens to them 2 years down the road?

    There goes a specific case of our Malaysian tertiary education.

    Like

  19. A true Malaysian
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 12:24:33

    Amin’s son is a living proof that Malays are not inferior to other races, and definitely does not requires special treatment to remain relevant & to excel.

    So what Abdul Razak Musa is a lawyer? We can’t be proud of his ‘achievement’.

    I am equally proud of you and your son, Amin. I share your joy as well as a proud Malaysian.

    Like

  20. ong
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 13:37:57

    The only thing about this article that I am very unhappy with is the continual reference to “Malaysians” and “we” when the reference should have been to “MACC prosecution head Abdul Razak Musa”. Such continual references to “Malaysians” and “we” imply that “MACC prosecution head Abdul Razak Musa” either represents or is representative of Malaysians in general. I don’t understand why Malaysians in general need or deserved to be insulted this way.

    To my knowledge, people with the kind of subnormal mindset and intelligence similar to that possessed by MACC prosecution head Abdul Razak Musa are actually quite well confined, mostly to those with the ketuanan-UMNO mentality.

    Like

  21. Dr Hsu
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 14:10:30

    Ong
    There is a bit of misunderstanding there. I did not intend to insult anyone. Nor did i compare anyone to the counsel or MACC.

    When i used Malaysians, and we, i include myself in, and this is because when I say “we” or Malaysians must not” or should not, it is meant to be a reminder to all of us inclduing me that we must not follow the ways of some of them. It is like some of the leaders saying that ‘we should not be racist” we should not be extremists’– by saying that it does not mean that we are racists or extremists. It is a reminder for all of us not to be so…

    ANother example: When I am with a group of doctors and I say ” we doctors should not sell MCs” it does not mean that this group of doctors sell MCs, but rather to remind this group of doctors we should not do what a small minority of doctors may be doing.. That is the way English language works.

    It does not mean to insult, but i apologise if anyone including Ong if they feel slighted by this article.

    This article was listed in Harakah daily online too. CLick here to see today’s Harakah under the section” chips off the blogs”.

    http://harakahdaily.net/en/

    I must be the only one from my party to have his article listed there… Perhaps because of my role as an opposition inside.. So I hope ONg understand that I wish Malaysia well and Malaysians well.

    Like

  22. CYC
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 17:43:54

    Amin,

    Syabas to your son for upholding the nation’s pride.

    Manusia bermaruah sentiasa mencari nafkah hidup dengan usaha gigih tanpa mengharapkan belas kesihan dari sesiapa pun. Malah, dia akan cuba sedaya upaya untuk menolong insan-insan yang kurang bernasib dan kurang upaya demi mendukung paersaudaraan murni sesama manusia.

    Kalau dikupaskan kulitnya, isinya tidak berbeza.
    Melayu, Cina, India dan selainnya hanya merantau dan tumpang hidup di bumi ini buat sementara shahja. Jadi, bumi ini tidak dimiliki oleh sesiapa pun. Pakir dari segi fikiran itu lebih buruk dari pakir dari segi harta.

    Like

  23. petestop
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 20:09:34

    “A dead person would be heavier…”

    Ha…ha..ha… obviously this loyar buruk fails his Physics…

    This kind of low-grade lawyer, graduated from our supposedly top university and working in top position one of most important governmental institution.

    You tell me, how far have we slide… and how far further we need to slide… before we kick out the root of the problem.

    Does it still wonder why we lost Pulau Batu Puteh to the Red Dot down below at the International Court of Justice ?

    Previously we have a Prime Minister and Finance Minister who failed his maths…..

    … what kind of further blunder that make us a laughing stock in the world do we need to show some more, before we say enough is enough ??

    This kind of Katak Bawah Tempurung behaviour can only happen in Bolehland under the auspices of Ketuanan BeEnder….

    Like

  24. petestop
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 20:14:30

    I’m in the position to hire engineers, and year after year, I see those job applicants from Jobstreets, hundreds of them… is of so low grade and quality….

    … that I totally cannot hire them….that I just wonder… where all of them going to cari makan…. will the government continue to bloat the civil service to absorb them…..

    The world is moving on, if you go to China, you will be amaze at the speed and the pace of development, now they are factory for the world, but just wait and see, as they already build up their technology base and will and already surpasses Japan as the 2nd largest economy in the world, and projected to surpass US as well.

    And Bolehland continues to sit on their ass, raising racial and religious issue that will kick us back further decades into the past….

    Like

  25. petestop
    Aug 20, 2010 @ 20:24:51

    Was at a factory in Zhuhai, visiting one of the largest EMS factory in the world.

    Was surprise to find a Malay there and I was happy, thinking that I found a fellow Malaysian there and inquire further.

    Only to find that the person is a Singaporean Malay and holding one of the highest position in that department.

    It just tells me that if the crutch is taken away, a person can stand on their own two feet and stand tall amongst the best of the best in the world.

    To continue supplying the crutch, will but create generations of cripples and will always be looked down due to the lack of backbone.

    But then again, this crutch is the ticket for the continuation of power to loot and plunder the country’s resources and coffer for the select few.

    Like

  26. samson
    Aug 21, 2010 @ 11:26:08

    I was waiting for you to write an article about this subject and true to form, you caught the off-hand remark from the so-calles legally trained local prosecutor. Being a legally trained myself from England, I am appalled at how low our local lawyers can stoop on character assasination of a witness.. I would never stoop so low as to ask a person if their unis were recognised or not…Not forgetting that many local lawyers are externally qualified from U.London thru various colleges here.

    Also someone of Dr. Pornthip’s stature as a VIP (rank of Khunying- bestowed by the HRH the King of Thailand) comparable to many TanSris and Tuns here, she would find the prosecutor rude and low-classed the very least…reflects his upbringing, I suppose. Hopefully she would not class all malaysians as the same stature as the prosecutor!

    Like

  27. kl_boy
    Aug 21, 2010 @ 19:18:49

    sigh…..if this is the best that government can produce, next time any land dispute with other countries, they would be more than happy to bring it up to the World Body / ICJ. It would be like a free pass to them !

    Like

  28. AgreeToDisagree
    Aug 22, 2010 @ 09:29:26

    It will be our fault if we keep quiet and not challenge by running for election. So we should keep an eye out for each other and act or run for election if need be, so that ‘Evil Men Do Not Triumph By Our Inaction.’

    Dr.Hsu, you appear to have the experience and years as well as finances to do this. How about running for election in YOUR constituency with the below 3 items as your goals?

    1) Freedom from Apartheid/Fascism
    2) Freedom from Religious-Persecution/Religious-Supremacy.
    3) Equality for all ethnicities and faiths in all aspects of policy, Law and Constitution.

    Those DAP guys are starting to worry me too . . .

    Like

  29. aca
    Aug 22, 2010 @ 11:01:59

    kl boy,

    in UMNOland, stupidity is legal. after losing an island to the red dot neighbour and gaining a pebble, UMNO Ministers can rejoice the country has won!

    Like

  30. aca
    Aug 22, 2010 @ 11:06:00

    peteshop,

    the fights are created as smokescreen for them to continue to steal. PKFZ is huge? wait till you see the Bakun dams and the damned dams in Sarawak.

    and the humonguous overprice purchases of tincans in the name of security. it aint gonna be millions. it will be billions.

    UMNO is going on scorched earth policy as a insurance in case its vote manipulation cant even save them.

    Like

  31. kplee
    Aug 25, 2010 @ 10:45:10

    This dickhead is the by product from Bolehland so called universities. His self-claimed as a lawyer finally proved to the whole world what type of quality, integrity and professionalism we have in our so called local trained lawyers in Bolehland. Moreover, this bum is a big disgrace to the lawyer profession and made us the laughing stock to the whole world. How to get justice when you have half past six “lawyer” behaved like he knows all. He even got the cheek to say her qualification is not recognized. If this bum care to look himself in front of a mirror, he will definitely see a monkey instead. We can bet Thailand universities are far more professional and qualified than most universities in Bolehland.
    One more “MACC, kalau nak tipu orang dapat la yang ada otak sedikit. Razak ini nak cekek diri sendiri pula, tengok mati tak.”

    Like

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