I am confused!

I am confused!

Telco companies announced that they are going to pass the 6% service tax to the people.

This service tax is not imposed by the telcos, but rather by the government for god knows how many years now. Those who are using fixed lines and postpaid have been paying these taxes, as well as those who subscribe to satellite TVs.

This service tax was increased from 5% to 6% during the last budget presentation..

This tax is imposed by the government, and whatever amount paid by the users goes to government coffers.

Now, the government has called a meeting and successfully asked the telcos not to pass the tax onto  the users.

This implies that the government knows that the 6% service tax is a burden on the people.

If the government knows that this 6% service tax is a burden on the people, then logically the government should be the one calling off the imposition of such tax, not only on telcos, but on other services as well. A caring government would not do anything to increase the burden of the people, who is already finding it difficult to make ends meet.

So if the government knows that this is a burden and it claims to be a caring government, it should do away with the tax.

Why has the government  asked the telcos to continue absorb this tax, instead of cancelling the imposition of service tax?

After all, this tax is imposed by the government and the revenue goes to the government , not to the telcos. Telcos merely collect what the government want the users to pay.

So why blame the telcos and express shock that the telcos are going to pass this tax to the users?

Who is the culprit? The one who imposes this tax, or the one just collecting from end users on behalf of the one who imposes the tax?

See, this is real confusing!

79 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. CYC
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 14:07:03

    There are just too many questions for this govt to answer.

    1. Why are they started imposing minimum wages on security service sector instead of the plantation sector?
    2. Why are they compelled Robert Kuok to sell central sugar to cronies who immediately raised the price justified with the illogical excuse of sugar is bad for health?
    3. Why pornstar was not prosecuted when the proof of his illegal acts were shown to the whole world?
    4. Why SPAD issued contradicting statement on the acquisition of China Town land? Who is lying or it was just a snadiwara?
    5. Will MRT project shoot up to more than RM100 billion as they keep on postponing to announce the final cost?
    6. Are we hiring kangkung professors to educate our kids in universities with a bunch idiotic professors twist and turn on the facts of history?
    7. Why no action taken against so many irregularities committed by plc and blindly endorsed by SC? Are there any self enriching scheme going on there?
    8. Why the Chinese media journalists kept idolising politicians without using their brains yet got bashing by the power that be ?
    9. What had our govt did to improve our economic situation other than dishing out rubbish from the Lab?
    10. Why take the effort to tie up Ivy League uni to set up medical u but end up sponsoring 3rd class students to enroll in this “prestigious” medical u?

    LASTLY, why are those highly qualified PhD holders in GELAKAN only pursuing tiny and negligible issue by holding press conference/briefing why keep their bloody mouth quiet on national policy issues?

    Like

  2. Kenny
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 15:12:56

    The telcos have every right to pass on the service tax to the consumers as this is a tax on end users. But instead of standing firm and telling off the govt the telcos immediately decide to toe the line under the govt’s pretended displeasure. The telcos and govt are acting like one. This shows the unhealthy symbiotic relationship between big business and govt. If corporations and govt are sitting on the same side of the table who is there to protect the public’s interest? No wonder we have toll concessionaires, IPPs, Puncak Niaga, Syabas with their one-sided contracts which favour corporations over consumers.

    Like

  3. Rhan
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 15:21:46

    From mysinchew.com “The telcos had been absorbing the six per cent service tax that was to be charged from pre-paid users but collectively decided recently to pass it to customers from Thursday (Sept 15).”

    The part actually confuse me is why the Telco agree to absorb the tax in the past? A business strategy or they love their customer, but now realise the love is becoming too burden?

    Like

  4. sally
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 15:30:06

    A mamak stall under a tree also charges 6% service tax… soon all the pasar malam and pasar tani stalls will do likewise.

    Like

  5. Dr Hsu
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 15:52:57

    sally
    yes, many small businesses which do not even pay tax charge the 6% tax, and pocket the money instead of passing it to the government. It is just another way to make more money for these small businesses, many do not even give out receipts.

    Like

  6. A true Malaysian
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 16:28:33

    Hotels, restaurants, club house etc charge 10% (service charge) and 6% (service tax), and they called it ‘Govt tax’.

    I can understand the 6% service tax but not the 10% service charge. Anyone can tell me if the 10% is legal or come under any Act of law?

    Like

  7. Kenny
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 17:01:35

    Yes, it’s legal as long as there is no controlled price in effect but just give them any more tips.

    Like

  8. monsterball
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 17:15:19

    All Malaysians know all kinds of taxes are imposed by the government only.
    No one has the authority to raise this or that tax.
    Najib sound so stupid to accuse Telco..doing the most stupid unlawful thing….and the stupid act by him goes on further by him saying he has stopped Telco to apply the 6% tax.
    Anyway…sally has said it.
    Corruption makes UMNO b look stupid when no 2/3 majority to approve multi billion RM projects….to have funds to keep corruptions on and on to govern forever.
    Now…all sorts of ideas are being thought out and exposed by Malaysians.
    First..election electoral roll….still trying hard to keep phantom voters on….by this low class Law Minister….agree to comply….add more and delay….hoping after 13th GE..as if all Malaysians are that stupid.
    Now no disagreement…we want the electoral rolls corrected NOW!!
    Lets wait and see.
    This 6% tax makes the govt look like an idiotic powerless government…..because under Najib…it is truly an idiotic government for the many reasons we all know why.
    So Doc..don’t get confused.
    It’s an idea to tax all Malaysians to have small changes.if not billions to continue feeding money to their supporters.
    Without feeding…more and more voters will support Oppositions.
    It is money matters…no money no vote.

    Like

  9. Rhan
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 17:34:02

    I think the 10% service charge is tips, but the business legalise it when they mention clearly there is service tax in their menu or make it easily visible, they invite you to treat with the menu, you offer by ordering, and acceptance done when they take your order, so no issue.

    Just curious, did the Telco agreement with their customer mention that there is a 6% tax and state that they absorb the tax?

    Like

  10. monsterball
    Sep 13, 2011 @ 19:20:08

    Every kind of charges.must be approved by the Govt.
    Tips is voluntary….but if included into the bill…it must be approved by the Govt.
    In short…the latest 6% charges imposed by Telco is approved by Govt…and for Najib to twist and turn the matter around and round cannot fool Malaysians.
    Anyway….Najib has announced Telco was told not to apply the 6% charges.
    How nice…case closed.
    Now Najib said.. ISA …to be abolished. Hisham said…not confirm yet.
    Good…leave it there and let PR Govt. give UMNO b crooks.. the taste of their own medicine.

    Like

  11. Eric
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 00:09:18

    Many people may not realise this but we have been paying service tax for the past 35 years (since 1975). Based on the Economic Report 2010/2011, service tax revenue collected by the Government via was RM3.3 billion in 2009 and RM4.0 billion for 2010, representing approximately one-third of the total service tax revenue collected.

    The Service Tax Act 1972 required the taxable person to levy, charge and collect service tax. As such, the telcos are to comply with such requirements.

    The fact that telcos decide to absorb the tax on prepaid and starter packs is a business decision. It does not require any further approval from MOF or MCMC. Therefore, it is painful (shame? sad?) to hear various statements from our YBs from both sides on this issue, oblivious to the fact that it was the Government who approved the imposition of service tax on telecommunication services (since 1992).

    If the 6% is a burden to rakyat and to show that the Government cares, why not take the opportunity to exclude the telecommunication services from the list of taxable services as per the Second Schedule to the Service Tax Regulations, 1975 in the coming budget in Oct 7? Do you think that the Government would want to forego RM4billion revenue?

    So, it is not that confusing after all. Our law-makers (including the Finance Minister) who do not have sufficient knowledge on this small matter, how are they going to implement GST after GE (The Star 14 Sep 2011)?

    Like

  12. BeWildered
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 00:19:02

    Any payment which is labeled with the word ‘TAX’ is imposed by government, not one else can do that (hopefully). And the agency which required by the law to collect ‘TAX’ is doing so on behalf of the government. This agency can be any business entity selling services or products. In this case, it is the telecommunication service providers.

    To see the PM came out telling the telco companies not to pass the service tax to the consumer is a mockery of governance, there is nothing confusing about what is happening.

    The PM does not know how the legislatures operate before he opens his mouth OR the abuse of law is so pervasive in Malaysia that PM thinks what he says is the law! Or the PM thinks all the rakyat are so stupid that they can be deceived to blame the telco companies rather than looking at the government as the one increasing their financial burden. Actually most of the rakyat can easily be misled with all the media being controlled and under puppeteer.

    Either one of the above is not a good sign for Malaysia. it just show how chaotic governance has become of Malaysia.

    What can happen next ?

    Like

  13. Ellese
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 08:00:48

    Lets set the parameters first. You cannot chew and eat it as well. Put a stand. Are you or are you not against the tax increase? Any tax increase will result in unhappiness worldwide. It’s not a Malaysian phenomena. If the answer is negative, do you ever believe in tax increase to support the budget? What’s your stand on GST? How do we close in our fiscal deficit?

    Don’t think partisanly. It’s the same debate worldwide. Republicans want lower tax knowing it will cause fiscal deficit. Partisan thinking has led to a gridwall of the US.

    We can’t be debating in circles. If impose tax you condemn but if dont impose you also condemn. There’s no purpose of solving or moving forward. If purpose is purely to condemn bn might as well start with name calling without reason upfront. Why take so much effort to justify here and that before reaching an already defined target?

    Like

  14. Ellese
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 08:28:45

    CYC,

    Your question lead me to believe that you’ve been reading one sided point of view. Our problem is that none MSM and pro pr Alternative media have been giving true objective view on matters. This is the most disappointing development of 08. And as a result we have deepening of partisanship where one side is disdain of the others explanation.

    Take for intance the video issue. There are makers of video and actors in it. Why both party don’t want both makers and actors be persecuted. Why is bn wanting Anwar to be persecuted and not CSL? Why is PR asking CSL and not Anwar? Right or wrong here seems to be who you support and not what you do.

    Similarly with the SPAD issue. Why highlight Chinatown grab only. Their model of ‘Land Grab” has consistently been the same. I personally know a person whose “land grab” is bigger than the china town. The issue is whether we agree or not with the mrt land development model? if do how to achieve it with the most optimum method? There’s always be someone who is unhappy and politicians exploiting it.

    On cost, I think we should spend much more. In fact i want more mrt in particular circle lines. I want mrt to generate further domestic growth like the NSE did. What I don’t want is rental seeking. But this can be overcome by having open transparent tenders. So its not the absolute cost so much as it can generate income as well.

    Similarly with your alleged prof kankung. I think mat sabu started the misinformation. Prof kling to me was right. Historical records showed some parts were colony and other parts protectorate. In any case we need to be independent from the British from both. Otherwise we still have british residents/advisors in our [federated n unfederated malay] states. But look how this issue was spun?

    Much more to write but will stop here.

    Like

  15. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 08:53:17

    Yip….Ellese….spinning to confuse voters is done by few and especially by CYC.
    Waiting to read more wonderful comments from you.
    And hope Rhan learn something.
    He keep on asking questions and have doubts in all his comments.

    Like

  16. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 09:03:30

    I love your comment on the video issue.
    Like Mrs Clinton said….”Poor Malaysians. Poor Anwar”
    Please watch out for this CYC future comments.
    Lets wait for his reply to your comments…..if any….and Rhan should start asking questions with “PLEASE”….for others to hep him.

    Like

  17. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 09:15:45

    I am in a good mood and will answer Rhan’s doubt on Telco.
    hi Rhan….Telco NEVER implemented the 6% yet.
    So no customer are complaining….got it?

    Like

  18. Rhan
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 09:54:05

    “It is just another way to make more money for these small businesses”

    Yes agree, and this happen all over the world. I read somewhere (is that freakonomics?) that more than 50% of the small businesses evade tax in US, and the one that comply with tax regulation is actually the wage earners, this is natural on how thing develop as tax investigation and audit cost doesn’t come cheap. The only few thing wage earner can ‘cheat’ is pertaining to tax credit, like forged reporting on number of children, and the US inland revenue solve this via the obligatory children information that include social security number, hence solve the problem and improve the tax revenue by millions.

    Like

  19. Li Li Fa
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 10:15:26

    “If the government knows that this 6% service tax is a burden on the people, then logically the government should be the one calling off the imposition of such tax, not only on telcos, but on other services as well.”

    “So if the government knows that this is a burden and it claims to be a caring government, it should do away with the tax.”

    So true.

    It looks as if the telcos are GLCs, answering to the back and call to their directives. The Gomen and the telcos are now working hand in hand to milk the people’s money. On the other hand, the government wants to appear as innocent as a dove, but actually the wolf behind the whole thing. What can we say of this government?

    If this gomen thinks the 6% service tax is a burden to the people, it is rightly so that they should abolish the same. Why at this juncture create uncessary huha and push the blame on the telcos who are collecting agents?

    Is it because the 13GE is coming soon? Imposing the 6% service tax will definitely dampen a lot of election fire. If BN were to win in the coming 13GE, will they implement this 6% service tax after everything is over?

    Are there no other means to increase the coffers of the Government than to burden the people further?

    Have they looked into the travelling expenses of the gomen servants, especially in their field trips locally and overseas? The PM’s trips and his flom to Khazasthan, UK, Rome, Perth, etc. tapped into the tax-payers’ coffers conveniently as official visits. What about the DPM’s and other gomen servants’ travelling expenses. Millions and even billions could be saved.

    Instead of finding more ways and means to tax the people and further burden them, the gomen should think of ways to expand the economy, improve the manufacturing and export industries, encourage foreign and local investments, etc.,etc., etc.

    or maybe the gomen is also confused at this juncture.

    Like

  20. Rhan
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 10:33:50

    Monsterball, I agree my question is a bit confuse (since this thread is about ‘I am confused’), I shall rephrase. I never use prepaid so I might be wrong, during registration, is there a contract that stipulate Telco absorb the service tax and they have the rights to impose it onto their customer if they wish to. Just asking, please enlighten me if you know.

    My impression toward the whole episode is that the few monopolies and oligopolies industries can charge and change the pricing contract with customer at their fancy and wish, and consumer only remedy is via the stop of services which is unlikely or look forward government intervention, and this lead me back to Hsu sarcastic remark of “I am confused!”, is this a sendiwara? And the next question is if the 6% is a burden, then everything else is a burden, is that not an act of inconsistency from our government?

    Like

  21. CYC
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 10:40:38

    I am not an angel and therefore I may have some bias opinion. But ultimately all my opinions geared towards a paramount objective : fairness and transparency.

    I am not a Anwar’s admirer. The difference between Anwar and CSL’s case is one admitted his wrong doing publicly but no action taken against him while the other is fighting the allegation in court to clear his name. If the allegation is proven, lets send him to jail. The question here is why are we so tolerance with our enforcement units for doing biased job ?

    Nobody is against the MRT project I presume, if it is carried out with full transparency and accountability. But obviously it is not so. We can’t go on and say cost is not an issue as long as it reaps long term benefits. In any business, cost is definitely an IMPORTANT issue as if affects your bottom line. And in this case it affects the country’s well being. Further more, equitable and transparency are what we fighting for if one professed to be non partisan.

    Never try to justify MRT land grab by quoting another bigger grab. This is a dangerous way to justify a wrong doing by comparing with another bigger sin.

    As to the opinion of the said professor, is he arguing the point based on technical definition or reality that took place during the period in review ? If his point is right, why took the hassle to reclaim independence from the white men in 1957? You don’t need to seek approval from your company’s adviser to implement a policy.

    Tax is always associated with a nation’s wealth and welfare program. I m not against any tax as long as it justify the objectives and accountable for the usage of revenue collected. When u have high tax rate , u must provide the corresponding development and welfare program for your citizens to enjoy. What we see in our country is self enriching taxation scheme.

    Like

  22. Kenny
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 11:19:32

    Well, Najib has said it. GST will be imposed after the general election. As with every country GST rate will start small but will keep ramping up as the govt needs more money. In Zimbabwe GST rate is 20%. There will also be a spike in inflation when GST is implemented.

    GST widens the tax base. Those whose incomes are not taxable now will have to start paying tax too. No doubt essential goods are exempted but you can’t live on essential goods alone.

    So this G.E. may be a referendum on whether the people want GST or not. I wonder why Najib has to say it. A political blunder?

    Like

  23. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 11:24:15

    Rhan….Doc is not trying to be sarcastic.
    He put out..”i’m confused”…and write is post representing the confused Malaysians.
    He is too smart to be confused.
    It is his way to contribute …opening minds.
    However….there are few comments Doc made that I think is trying to buy time and get commentator’s opinions…before he starts committing himself..
    Having said that….you have no business to judge Doc or others as you are full of shit and no manners at all.
    I am surprised you and CYC feel so much at home in this blog.

    Like

  24. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 11:41:17

    Just look at the Telco matter being spinned round and round by UMNO b corrupted ministers…one protecting the other..who disagreed and yet…must agree to save each other.
    And that uncultured..no manners.. CYC love to rub it in…to confuse the issue.
    Since no condolence…we can presume..he has an axe to grin here…out to “chop” someone.

    Like

  25. Rhan
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 11:45:30

    “I think mat sabu started the misinformation”

    Ellese, I am quite perplex on how this issue develop into, I am not a mind reader so I can only read what MS said in literally form during the ceramah. His point is on Mat Indera but it seems the media expand it into communist. I agree to over glorify communist is wrong, but MS never do that, I think he just want the people to recognized the role of the leftist. What do you think?

    Like

  26. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 11:51:09

    Only an idiotic Govt. can tell Malaysians…that private companies have the right to impose taxes …..and immediately say…they have no rights,…because the Govt controls all the laws..and have final say.
    So much twists and turn applied to get Anwar into trouble..to see themselves being protected by …twisted laws…..yet to save Malaysians being taxed more…takes so much undecided discussions’
    Who is Najib and his government trying to fool?
    More ideas on more taxes are goods news to a corrupted Govt.and Najib……. that needs more and more money.
    Right now…these clowns are contradicting each other.

    Like

  27. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 11:57:31

    Misinformation was pointed out by Ellese…saying Mat Sabu….pointed out the misinformation by UMNO…..correct Ellese?
    Or are you saying Mat Sabu started to confuse Malaysians with misinformation?
    Rhan is confused..as he always is….an expert arm chair critic with no manners.

    Like

  28. Rhan
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 12:05:19

    Monsterball, i agree Hsu is too smart to be confused, and that is why i write ……ok forget it. I did say please this round do I? So no answer from you again?

    Btw, my second paragraph is to imply that the people (in this blog) contempt is not solely on tax imposed but inconsistency, actully is for Ellese attention.

    Like

  29. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 12:07:52

    Since UMNO b is so concern about not giving more burden to Malaysians and PR are thinking the same way…fighting it …and if that was a Law giving Telco the power to apply taxes….then call for an emergency Parliament meeting…put out a proposal to amend the Law…and you will have a rare occasion….to witness BN and PR agrees and the 2/3 majority seen and done.
    Why is UMNO b guys so stupid?…or maybe so insincere towards Malaysians?

    Like

  30. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 12:20:42

    Rhan….I am talking to you…not out of friendliness nor like you at all.
    You and CYC..disgraced the Malaysian Chinese community roots…culture and behaviors.
    You are attacking Ellese …and we know why.
    Both of you can keep trying to twist and turn.
    I am sure…many leave both of you for Ellese and me to put you where you both belong….tong sampah….rubbish cans.
    I rest…Street fighter ….Kenny…will take over.
    Right now…both are sick of your kind…shaming Malaysian Chinese.
    You think you talk nice to me…I will be impressed?
    I replied…for the sake of young voters and readers not to conclude Doc’s character..like you are trying to paint him to be.
    His smartness does not hurt Malaysians.
    Yours and CYC smartness hurts Malaysian Chinese…and all are watching both of you like hawks….believe it!

    Like

  31. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 12:33:41

    No amount of words are enough to describe you and CYC low class behaviors.
    CYC can hate Anwar as much as he likes.
    It is his rights…..but he need not try try be too smart to come here and confuse issues.
    Just put out plainly…you are FOR BN…and why…and let us debate.
    Yet…each time I write CYC and Rhan’s name…I am sick to the stomach to see such Malaysian Chinese…yet CYC complained about Malaysians attitudes and behaviors ..few weeks ago.
    What do we have here?…these two so call intelligent Malaysian Chinese?
    If I am allowed to express myself with my true feelings….it must be written with so many foul words…for that is the only way..I know how to describe these two.

    Like

  32. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 12:56:07

    Now Mahathir is asking Najib to delay the 13thb GE and step down.
    He had 4 DPM and now 2 PMs he chose…all no good.
    He is the best of the best.
    I am glad to read this at Malaysiankini…as it shows…even Mahathir admits UMNO b is loosing…but the blame game will always carry on…by him.
    He created all the corruptions…dirty politics…and everyone knows Najib…have no quality to be PM….yet he supported it….and now Najib failed…he is trying hard to save his party and his sons again.
    I hope after Najib reading what Mahathir said…can come out to redeem himself and let Allah judge him..and indirectly….get Mahathir into jail.
    Even 86 years old…he is so vicious and cruel…let him die in jail.
    One group keep protecting Mahathir saying he does not know this or that corruption done.
    Maybe so,,,,,for he was very busy looking for multi billions ideas to make 10% and that 10% is 10 times more than what his students can make….50% to UMNO b account..5-% for themselves.
    Who can cheat RM100 billion within 22 years as PM in Malaysia?

    Like

  33. CYC
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 17:02:30

    When a guest take over the duty of the house master, shit hits the fan and spread over the whole house. Who shall be held responsible ?

    I am at peace with myself but some don’t. But it is their right to do so. They can be angry with others but when others do not accept his kind of shit fanning, the shit goes back to himself. He can keep it as it is.

    Like

  34. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 17:19:47

    CYC…….how many times must I tell you ..be a man and speak directly to the person you wish to accuse.
    Your instigation will not work.
    “shit fanning. the shit goes back to himself”….how right you are.
    Who is fanning…who is the shit man here?
    Quote all the fanning I have done.
    Come on…put them out.

    Like

  35. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 17:30:46

    We are Internet commentators..whole world reading.
    Our behaviors…our way of talking will be judged.
    I repeat…you and Rhan…shame the Malaysian Chinese.. roots…culture and behaviors.

    Like

  36. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 17:37:48

    What Mahathir spoke against Najib…. is something most young readers will like to know…as not all can subscribe to Malaysiakini news.
    Does that bother you?

    Like

  37. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 17:59:26

    Give me ONE good reason why you will not respect the dead and the blog owner?
    If it is logical…I will kneel down and apologize to you and Rhan.
    But if you cannot respect the blog owner great loss ….nothing you and Rhan say will carry any weight.
    This is also about our roots and culture…you are showing to young Malaysian Chinese…that are utterly sickening and low class,

    Like

  38. monsterball
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 18:01:24

    So comment as much as you like….but don’t try to label me anything.
    I can label you..for that’s what you and Rhan are.

    Like

  39. streetfighter
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 18:16:11

    Why always simply accused ‘someone’ fart or shit?This ‘no man’ chinese must be the one who is full of shit and NO manners.I want to avoid this real shitter and the other so-called chinese expert yet so confused with his multi FULL- BAG of questions.Shame on this two no manners chinese!

    Like

  40. deadeagle
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 20:47:58

    if govt so concerned, then just waive 6% tax for all telephone services, prepaid and post paid

    Like

  41. Rhan
    Sep 14, 2011 @ 21:11:08

    Ad Hominem : attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.

    Argument By Laziness : the arguer hasn’t bothered to learn anything about the topic. He nevertheless has an opinion, and will be insulted if his opinion is not treated with respect.

    Needling : simply attempting to make the other person angry, without trying to address the argument at hand. Sometimes this is a delaying tactic.

    Straw Man : attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent’s position.

    Fallacy Of The General Rule : assuming that something true in general is true in every possible case.

    Argument By Dismissal : an idea is rejected without saying why.

    Argument by Stupidity : Hmmm….not easy to explain, but we know when we read one, and here got plenty.

    Like

  42. streetfighter
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 01:06:19

    Confused man:making fool statements to confuse others but end up confused man himself.
    Arm chair critic man:Judging Ellese,doc and other readers but so blur on judging himself..why,why tell me why..?But we know why he’ll never know the reason why.
    Shameful man:No condolences and respect for blog’s owner but yet drop by to throw questions for answers.Or more alike a student been late or never pay a due and respect for lessons learned in the owner’s blog.
    ‘He is all in one mentioned above’ ‘Judge him back as he always judge you’

    Like

  43. monsterball
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 01:09:47

    No wonder he dares to call himself an ….arm chair critic!!
    He studies characters and make sure…he is at the top …by asking questions..questions…questions….keep throwing red herrings ..asking that person… to catch… catch… catch.
    He can observe and study characters…so can all of us.
    Notice he did not put out…..instigating….confusing ..twisting….sly fox..poisoning minds…bragging….ignoring rules ….no manners…no respect to blog owner…AND now…..a disgrace to the Malaysian Chinese Community…disgracing the roots and culture.
    This arm chair critic…have one distinct characteristic…shown from time to time.
    He cannot differentiate a comment made for him or for another person…thus his IQ is low…and cover it up by asking questions and memorizing many things…he has no idea..what he is talking about.
    One who talk so much of Chinese history….yet no manners…no condolence for a death announced …is a pain in the arse to many.
    He and his accomplish have an agenda..so do we.
    We observe…and respond with no manners too.
    Two can play the same game……FOR or AGAINST.
    Both have been exposed and cornered.
    Crying for help???

    Like

  44. monsterball
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 01:32:48

    StreetFighter….Confused man…is not confused at all.
    He is a good actor..acting like a confused man…..like a man in the street…less educated and talk like one..behave like one..that can easily be confused .
    He creates an idea for all to discuss and debate.
    Does that confusion harm any voters against the government?
    Not at all.

    Like

  45. monsterball
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 03:26:00

    I mean accomplice..not accomplish..but all know my lousy english and know what I am talking about.
    Please…don’t be confused…not intentional.

    Like

  46. Ellese
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 06:19:29

    Rhan,

    This is my take on mat sabu’s case. But before I start, if people want to argue that this issue is blown out of proportion, I can agree to that.

    But I thought what mat sabu said was disingenuous misconceive and misrepresent the matters. And what ensued later on justifying or glorifying mat indera as a true “perjuangan kemerdekaan” based on Bukit kepong context was wrong in value.

    What did mat sabu say? I can’t quote verbatim as I can’t find the whole transcript. Anyway he touched on Bukit kepong and told the audience that mat indera is the real perjuang kemerdekaan. MS said it was unfair to treat M Indera as terrorist. but he should be regarded as the same or better parity than Dato onn etc as he says Dato onn etc are “pegawai British”. 

    Now Facts at Bukit kepong was that mat indera led the attack with 200 to 300 hundred others. He not only killed the police officers but also two woman and children. The woman and children were not used as shield but as pawn. They were unarmed. When the bukit kepong police refused to surrender, the communist led by MI executed them and later burned them.

    As a matter of fact the communists had different ideology. The amnesty provided pre 57 were not accepted (only a few) by the communists. They knew we’re getting independence and fought against us until the 80s.

    I think MS was misinforming and spinning due to the following:

    1) mat indera was not alone in attacking Bukit kepong. If by what mat sabu said that since mat indera attacked the kepong British police station he is a freedom fighter, what about those with him who attacked the police? Why is MS not calling all those who attacked with MI as freedom fighter? They were doing the same act but why only MI be regarded as freedom fighter? In fact he denied ever making reference to them. That’s why the argument to say he did not mean to include communist was disingenuous. It makes no sense coz others are doing the same act. 

    2) The argument that anyone fighting British is considered pejuang kebangsaan is too simplistic and fraught with inconsistency. The Japanese also went against British. By MS assertion, shouldnt we also recognise the traitors who helped the japanese to conquer malaya as pejuang kebangsaan also?

    3) Then look at the action. The communists led by mat indera killed, executed and burned unarmed women and children and this, by all means, is against international convention and law . The means cannot justify the end similarly like the case of alqaedah who tried to justify unwonton killing as being in the cause of islam. Thus What MI did, was wrong by any standard and even in Islam. He is definitely a terrorist at bukit kepong and MS denial again is disingenuous. Any claim that he is religious person cannot compensate the cruel attack.

    4) we were borne out of our constitution. Our existence came into being from our constitution. Our freedom, institutions, nation, sovereignity and belongness are derived through our constitution. The communists were against all these. How can we support or glorify people against our existence and fought us even after our independence? How could we called them our freedom fighter when they disagree and oppose our freedom independence and existence?

    Thus to me the subsequent glorification of mat sabu and communists as our freedom and independence fighter are wrong in value. I can agree that they fight the British similar like Japanese. But they can’t be equated with onn Jaafar Tunku etc as fighter of our independence: pejuang kebangsaan. You can’t defend or glorify those against you.

    Like

  47. Ellese
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 06:52:03

    Dear CYC

    I can agree that the prosecution appears bias but in anwars case they did not prosecute CSL and Anwar. I believe its the call to prosecute CSL and not Anwar as bias. Admission is a ground for persecution. But in anwars case the video was found authentic and those who saw it can see for themselves. A denial does not negate prosecution. Most criminal denies their criminality but the prosecution must continue.

    On mrt, I think you need to take a stand. If you agree with the mrt model of land rail development, however you argue, you cannot escape land grab. the model requires land development to offshoot the mrt cost. So what is your stand? Any stand of agreeing to mrt, objecting to high cost but rejecting land development model does not seem consistent. Thus the issue of land grab to me is politicized by politicians of both divide to our detriment. Put a stand first then we develop the argument. Are you not for mrt land rail development model?

    On the historian professor, you must note that as protectorate across commonwealth you have given up your foreign affairs. Under international law a protectorate is still recognized as an autonomous territory which is protected by a stronger state. They invariably give up certain areas of governance in particular foreign affairs. It’s not free protection. In our case we gave up the foreign affairs and through treaty much of internal affairs. You can argue that de facto it appears were like being colonized. But British has treated us as such. We still need to regain control of all our affairs and be independent from the British.

    On tax, there must be an agreed parameter for discussion. You still did not put a stand on GST and fiscal deficit. Please do so.

    In the present case it’s a service tax. In principle ive no objection to the increase of service tax. I oppose selective application of it though. We go to restaurants and employ services of others and pay such tax willingly. Why make selective objection of tax for prepaid users? What’s so special to exclude them? These users for example have no objections to service tax in other areas. We’ve been having 5% service tax for years and 6% as of early this year with no hue and cry. Why are you agreeable to apply this selectively?

    The issue in prepaid is again politicized. To me it’s not about tax. Telco has been paying service tax and have absorbed it for years. They still
    make huge profits. Now with the increase of 1% they want to on charge the whole 6%. You decide whose to be blame here. As far as I’m concern telco must pay the 6% and no selective application of service tax. I’m more concern on issues related to anti competitive practice and excessive profit for regulated industries. But politicians being politician: blaming telcos has no political value. At the end the main issues are not resolved and we get repeats of this.

    Like

  48. Ellese
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 06:55:35

    Rhan,

    My last para. Reference to Mat sabu should be mat indera.

    Like

  49. monsterball
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 08:53:13

    Ellese…Are you a graduate from one of our Malaysian University on history?

    Like

  50. monsterball
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:22:28

    Based on your point 3 argument….can we say UMNO b created by Mahathir is a Communist Party…so cruel and using religion to play dirty politics?

    Like

  51. monsterball
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:26:36

    And we know…that so call UMNO b..a protector of Malays is actually treating fooling Malays….don’t we.
    So..is UMNO b …a Communist Party?

    Like

  52. monsterball
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:58:13

    What is a Freedom Fighter?
    It depends which side you are supporting.
    Both sides supporters can claim they are Freedom Fighter..and the twists continue.
    I don’t know much about Bukit Kapong….but if Mat Indera is fighting the British and along the way…..killed some innocent bystanders….including children..lets not make an issue of it…very common in wars.
    I think Mat Sabu is merely trying to correct history of Bukit Kepong based on his information he got from Freedom Fighters.
    And anything out to prove the Government is wrong..will get labels from the Government side kicks.
    Utusan is now labeling Mat Sabu …a Communist and one accusing him having illegal sex.
    Whether Mat Sabu is right or wrong…the fact that UMNO b sidekicks are attacking him…makes him all truthful and right..
    Our politics sucks…and of all the people….Ellese should know better..including out dated history that should be amended 30 years ago.
    Like I asked her…is she learning the history from one of our University?
    As long as Chin Peng a real Freedom Fighter…cannot be recognized and respected by UMNO b crooks…to be brave enough to welcome him back…as they time ..condition….situation..are right now…to unite all as Malaysians……but prefer to further divide and rule….then…nothing in history books…..Laws and Orders…are truthful at all.

    Like

  53. Rhan
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 10:25:44

    Ellese, thanks for the comprehensive write up.

    I paste here MS speech that is relevant:

    …tapi kita lihat cara yang dibuat itu memang banyak yang tak kena….bila hari merdeka nanti tunjuklah filem Bukit Kepong….Bukit Kepong polis itu….polis British…hak serang Bukit Kepong tu lah pejuang kemerdekaan….ketuanya Mat Indera….Melayu…..tetapi semua sejarah itu ditutup…..Jins Samsudin buat filem….Jins Samsudin tu umno….cerita Bukit Kepong hak serang Balai Polis tu penjahat…..polis tu polis British, sebelum merdeka, negara kita diperintah oleh British…..tapi dibuat filem yang hero hak pertahan balai polis, hak serang tu pengganas, padahal Mat Indera….ketua penyerang balai polis itu….dan akhirnya dia dihukum gantung di Jail Taiping ….

    http://bm.harakahdaily.net/index.php/articles/tamu-a-wawancara/5232-ucapan-mohamad-sabu-tentang-komunis#.TmSpFOxYNgU.blogger

    My contention is that I don’t think MS started the misinformation, in fact Johor named MI as patriot, MS didn’t divert from this fact unless we take the stance that Johor government made a mistake. And if I read correctly, MS never glorify communist, he never equate the leftist struggle with Onn Jaafar, Tunku etc, he merely want the government to recognize the role of the leftist. (Hishamuddin Rais writing is a different story, he is extremely left). My view is MSM and our DPM twist MS speech and the issue blow up, some tend to be defensive, rationality and sensibility evaporated. Like I said, to glorify communist or the leftist is not right but the context is now distorted.

    I agree with most of your view wrt Communist, and relate it back to our subscribe values. But I have this question in mind for many years, what if our government bans PAS and declare them as illegal organization, what would be the course of history?

    PS/ Hsu, if you are not comfortable with our discourse, let us know, we stop.

    Like

  54. Rhan
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 10:47:17

    On services tax, there are many businesses other than Telcos that made sizable profit, a business decision is now turn into a political one, what would be the direction and guideline in future? I think this the crux of this post.

    Like

  55. Dr Hsu
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 12:34:32

    Talking about service tax, just visualise this:

    If you ask a subordinate to collect certain fees from your customers, and your subordinate for reason of his own decides to pay the fees without collecting from the customers initially, but then later on he decides that he should collect from the customers to pay you, since this is what is originally planned, you in turn tell him that he cannot and should not collect the fees; What is meant to tax the customers is now meant to tax the subordinate; this is not right and this is sending wrong signals to other subordinates and other customers..

    Confusing, ya?

    Like

  56. Dr Hsu
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 12:45:11

    Rhan,
    pls continue your discourse as long as it is sensible discussion, without resorting to personal attacks or labelling people as this or that, and without libel to anyone.

    I would just add that many of the (China) Chinese Communists were in fact nationalists. They joined communism because of they wante to change China from a weakling bullied by all the western powers to one that is able to stand on its feet.

    Even Deng Xiao Ping, I suspect, is a nationalist at heart but wearing a communist hat. His theory of ” whichever cat that can catch mice is a good cat” means that he initially thought communism would provide a platform for change for China to be strong ( in a way, it did ), but later on he realised that China needs more than communism to move forward.

    China is now economically more capitalist than communist, with so many billonaires…

    Like

  57. Rhan
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 14:20:54

    Thanks Hsu.

    Mao criticism of Deng :
    “He doesn’t read, he doesn’t understand Marxism and Leninism, he stand for capitalist”
    “He continue to talk about white cat black cat, regardless of imperialism or capitalism”

    To some communist (China), goal justify the mean.

    Like

  58. Ellese
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 18:37:14

    Rhan,

    Exactly what I’m trying to say. I’ve seen the video. Again if you want to argue that it’s blown out of proportion by MSM I have no disagreement.

    If you listen immediately before and after the speech MS was already attacking the historical account . He mocked negaraku but factually I cannot complain. Then he mention the above and then he compared the terrorist with those of the like of onn Jaafar etc implying they are British lackey. Word used was “pegawai British” if not mistaken.

    But MS statement above was disingenuous misconceive and intent to mislead.

    He said:

    “….hak serang Bukit Kepong tu lah pejuang kemerdekaan….ketuanya Mat Indera….Melayu…..”

    Why disingenuous? “Hak” means them/they. So he was referring to those who attack Bukit kepong was pejuang kemerdekaan. It’s leader was Mat Indera.

    Here is where MS was disingenuous or putting crudely lying if he says that he was only referring to mat indera. He was firstly referring to the communist who so happen to be led by mat indera who is a Malay. (so what? racist?).

    Any account to justify he didn’t mean to refer to the communist is shallow.

    But my main objection was that his underlying intent to say that “those who attack Bukit kepong and so happen be led by mat indera” are our independent freedom fighter and not a terrorists was totally unacceptable . This to me is clearly wrong. In fact saying he was misinforming was actually a polite understatement. As I said, he was referring to communist who are led by mat indera. Why only now he says mat indera our freedom fighter and not the rest he led? Why killing of children and woman not terrorist?

    The value that MS espousing is wrong. Forget MS. It’s his message that we should object.

    Like

  59. Ellese
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 18:55:00

    Dear Monsterball,

    Forget mat sabu for a while. Any message by a Malaysian who support the communist attack in Bukit kepong incident is wrong. The communists were never our pejuang kemerdekaan. They fought against us knowing were getting independence and post independence. They killed our soldiers who protect our existence. You cannot glorify them as our pejuang kemerdekaan if you’re a Malaysian. There is only one perspective. Being Malaysian upholding our constitution. We have to get our value right. A right or wrong cannot depend on who you support but it should be the act itself. Take out mat sabu. The message was wrong.

    PS. I can agree to those attacking Bukit kepong are those who were against the British. This is correct. But so does the Japanese. neither however can be called our pejuang kemerdekaan. What more to compare with Dato onn and tunku.

    Like

  60. Ellese
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 22:06:29

    Rhan,

    Exactly what I’m trying to say. I’ve seen the video. Again if you want to argue that it’s blown out of proportion by MSM I have no disagreement.

    If you listen immediately before and after the speech MS was already attacking the historical account . He mocked negaraku but factually I cannot complain. Then he mention the above and then he compared the terrorist with those of the like of onn Jaafar etc implying they are British lackey. Word used was “pegawai British” if not mistaken.

    But MS statement above was disingenuous misconceive and intent to mislead.

    He said:

    “….hak serang Bukit Kepong tu lah pejuang kemerdekaan….ketuanya Mat Indera….Melayu…..”

    Why disingenuous? “Hak” means them/they. So he was referring to those who attack Bukit kepong was pejuang kemerdekaan. It’s leader was Mat Indera.

    Here is where MS was disingenuous or putting crudely lying if he says that he was only referring to mat indera. He was firstly referring to the communist who so happen to be led by mat indera who is a Malay. (so what? racist?).

    Any account to justify he didn’t mean to refer to the communist is shallow.

    But my main objection was that his underlying intent to say that “those who attack Bukit kepong and so happen be led by mat indera” are our independent freedom fighter and not a terrorists was totally unacceptable . This to me is clearly wrong. In fact saying he was misinforming was actually a polite understatement. As I said, he was referring to communist who are led by mat indera. Why only now he says mat indera our freedom fighter and not the rest he led? Why killing of children and woman not terrorist?

    The value that MS espousing is wrong. Forget MS. It’s his message that we should object.

    Like

  61. Ellese
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 22:07:46

    Dear Monsterball,

    Forget mat sabu for a while. Any message by a Malaysian who support the communist attack in Bukit kepong incident is wrong. The communists were never our pejuang kemerdekaan. They fought against us knowing were getting independence and post independence. They killed our soldiers who protect our existence. You cannot glorify them as our pejuang kemerdekaan if you’re a Malaysian. There is only one perspective. Being Malaysian upholding our constitution. We have to get our value right. A right or wrong cannot depend on who you support but it should be the act itself. Take out mat sabu. The message was wrong.

    PS. I can agree to those attacking Bukit kepong are those who were against the British. This is correct. But so does the Japanese. neither however can be called our pejuang kemerdekaan. What more to compare with Dato onn and tunku.

    Like

  62. streetfighter
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 23:17:51

    Hallo..you where come from one?University of Umno or MCA or Alqaedah?Why the alleged communist led by the freedom fighter,Mat Indera attacked Bukit Kepong not worthwhile recognised?Because he was not at then,by chance and could be indoctrinated by BTN course or Umno-jenis-islam code,i supposed?So and so with blah blah blah from you,he is non-patriotic ya?..only killing for shiok shiok sendiri,is it?They killed our soldiers to protect our existence..so as you said,right?Seriously,I think our then so-called hired soldiers were more likely protected the orang putih,so true and real colony master..oops..if ketuanan thingy offended you BUT their welfare and economic was at stake at then no?..and that must come as the utmost priority at that time for the interest of British..again no?Without the persistence struggle by the freedom fighter in the earlier stage,the meeker and more compromised Umno would not have the pride to call the ‘non-collonised’ Bolehland a merdeka nation today.Anyway i’ll rest my case now cause as i’ve said i want to avoid some people here…if possible.

    Like

  63. Rhan
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 23:56:07

    Some should have rested his ‘case’ long time ago, since when he had one?

    Like

  64. streetfighter
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 00:22:45

    You were always invited to share and offer Respecful oppinions,debates and funs regardless but then you so rude and no manners yet doc tried to cure you the best way to his own known reason.Doc is a very nice and forgiveful gentlement and may his late in-law will rest in peace and bless you too.

    Like

  65. Rhan
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 01:03:03

    Ellese,

    Perhaps your interpretation of MS speech is right, I can’t rebut because even if I want to, I am purely speculating. However, I doubt very much why he intended to speak from the angle of communist, and being a grassroots leader, he should grasp the sentiment well.

    Communist loss the war due to numerous reason, and terrorism is actually a prime one, thus in this perspective, I don’t disagree when you claim they are terrorist when civilian were killed. Even in a war, I would say killing of civilian is wrong, collateral damage is an excuse.

    However, don’t you think value is fluid? I love reading, and I read plenty of history books, what amuse me most is in particular those related to China contemporary history on KMT and CCP, I see how the KMT army being labeled as hero, then traitor, hero again, then villain, and back to hero in a span of 70 years. Thus whenever I was told about the good and bad, or right and wrong, the first thing come to mind is to be wary, and try to ponder the issue from the 5W1H viewpoint.

    Like

  66. monsterball
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 05:29:11

    “may his late-in-law will rest in peace and bless you too”
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Like

  67. monsterball
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 06:05:25

    Well…. well.. well….it looks like Chinese cultures are not important at all.
    Practicing….leaving the dead to the dead is very noble….but millions of Chinese cannot leave the dead relatives and forget……no mater what religion they embrace.
    It is deep rooted Chinese culture….a good culture to always respect your dead love ones.
    It’s not about.. forgive and forget.
    It’s about.. how to keep everyone happy…..no matter what they did.
    It’s about the art of living …and forget the dead.
    But if that art involves a dead that shamed the Chinese culture and be forgiven…it is an art…I hope my children will not learn.
    I admire Doc’s ever forgivable character.
    I thought I have that too….but not as good as Doc’s character and nature..
    I cannot be a politician but a Freedom Fighter…like the millions ordinary Malaysians I love to be considered as equal…. no positions..even if you are a doctor or lawyer…all the same….straight to the point…no two ways about it.
    We fight to win or prepare to die.
    Are Freedom Fighters… fighting a lost cause in Malaysia?

    Like

  68. monsterball
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:21:14

    Ellese…It is a waste of time to talk to you about the real history of Malaysia’s independence when you are educated by UMNO b half truth history books.
    I just want you to remember…Chin Peng was decorated by the British Empire for his contributions towards freeing Malaya….and he was the leader of the Communist Party.
    I want you to further remember….Tunku was ready to accept the Communist Party but changed his mind..being advised by the British…for political reasons.
    Tell me I am talking nonsense…..if you dare.
    If not…..please Ellese ….stop talking nonsense!!

    Like

  69. monsterball
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:33:22

    I am not on the mood to talk further….when our Chinese roots and cultures are put aside for personal likes and dislikes….leading Malaysian Chinese to be sly foxes with no manners..as a way of life in Malaysia.
    Am I reading it right or am I dreaming?
    That’s what I am thinking about….for I fought tooth and nail to protect Chinese roots and culture…to protect and respect blog owner…all wasted efforts??
    This is the lesson I am trying to learn….and no better ways to learn..but to say it straight to the faces of those involved..lovely kind hearted Malaysians or real sly foxes.
    I need to judge correctly…for my own poor soul.

    Like

  70. Ellese
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:41:25

    Monsterball,

    Just to understand your stand. Do you support the communist party which opposed us? what’s your point? If you disagree kindly rebut. Argument on where I study and categorizing me into UMNO is diversionary and unrelated. If my facts are incorrect rebut. Let’s go back to the issue: why do you agree with the statement of mat sabu that those who attacked Bukit kepong (the communists led by mat indera) is our pejuang kemerdekaan and not a terrorist? Kindly articulate.

    Like

  71. monsterball
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 08:04:17

    Christians are advised…when you are slapped at the left cheek…offer the right cheek at well….which to me is confusing and too deep meaning. I guess it is telling Christians ti be very humble and brave.
    Mohammad said…an eye for an eye….a tooth for a tooth…straight forward….and that s why Islam is a greater religion than Christianity today…more truthful and straight forward…not twisting…..no guessing needed.
    But Buddhists hang on to roots…cultures and behaviors…no one god…no religion…purely way of life…applying conscience and mindfulness….to get rid of all sorts of temptations…recognizes good advises…from great scholars like Confucious and live the way…he was advised.
    “Honor thy father and mother”,,,so said God in his Ten Commandments
    Does that mean ignore honoring them..when they are alive and forget them…when they are dead…and just perform the cultural death ceremony and be done with it?
    So much to learn….from a dead incident….what is truth and what is hypocrisy.

    Like

  72. CYC
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 18:07:44

    I wish to buy a car but I would not buy it if the price quoted is beyond is worth. But it is still crystal clear that I wanted a car. Secondly, the SPAD can always adopt the surrender and re-alienation method where the land owner at China Town surrender their land temporarily while the construction is on going. After completion, re-alienate the land back to the original owner. But, in this case, SPAD suddenly become the landlord ovenight even on the portion of land not occupied by MRT line and the original land owner became the tenant. Are we blind not to differentiate between “land grab” and “land acquired for genuine purpose based on national interest”.

    GST is ok but the crux of the issue is whether should I as a tax payer keeping quiet when personal income tax remained while GST gone higher and social benefits including education and medical care remained stagnant or deteriorating? On the other hand, telcos does not benefit by charging an addition 1% GST as all collection will be remitted back to govt.

    By arguing on technicality in reference to international treaties and laws, it seems none of the country in this ever been colonised. So, are we trying to tell all historians that they were plain stupid to have written a load of rubbish on world history particularly in reference to Malaya/Malaysia.

    It is pointless to make your stand if one does not advocates transparency. It is worst when one supported an “adulterated” project in pretense of future benefits.

    Like

  73. Ellese
    Sep 17, 2011 @ 06:48:06

    CYC

    If you believe in land rail model, surrender and alienation cannot work. Under NLC it must be voluntary. You cant plan your network and it’ll take ages to develop. It doesn’t make sense to adopt this. But the crux which you still refuse to answer is whether you’re for or against land rail development concept. It’s from here we can further elaborate the points. Otherwise were going to be stuck in what I call political argument without resolving issues.

    On tax, I note your stand on GST. By that you should not have problem with the service tax amount imposed on telco. After all the nett effect initially would be the same. Whether telco passes though the consumers the tax is a business issue unless to me it’s an anticompetitive measure or resulting in excessive profit in a regulated industry.

    On colony, please google a bit. Under British empire some are colonies (direct control of territory) and some are protectorate. For example singapore and penang are colonies. Please note those born in the colonies are British subjects. In protectorate states it’s not.

    Are you referring to mrt in the last para. If so why do you argue there’s a pretense for future benefits? Kindly justify. To my mind, we need more mrt. thats my stand.

    Like

  74. Ellese
    Sep 17, 2011 @ 07:18:12

    Rhan,

    Not accusing mat sabu is supporting communist. He made a political gaffe. In haste to condemn UMNO he had to say that there are others than tunku and onn Jaafar involved in independence. He want people to deny this or be less grateful to UMNO on independence day. That’s the mindset which is again incorrect coz truth is disregarded. In this case the gaffe was on Bukit kepong attackers. It makes no sense to make those who attack us as pejuang kemerdekaan.

    On changing values. You’ve made a good point. It’s that my take is at current time, i can’t see justification why communists (attackers of Bukit kepong) who are against our 57 independence be said to be our pejuang kemerdekaan.

    Like

  75. CYC
    Sep 17, 2011 @ 13:11:21

    Since when I said i oppose mrt.? And had i ever state that i opposed gst? Never, unless some minds are preoccupied with defensive stand and try to win an argument. Read my comment again and conclude your perception. Why conclude that surrender and re-alienation does work before even consider it as an option. The owners in China Town merely wanted to remain as owner after the completion of the mrt project. Unless u agree that spad should own the china town land after completion of the mrt EVEN THOUGH the said land were of no direct usage to mrt but just for financial gain. Mind u, the mrt runs underneath the land and not on the said land.

    When one wars raped, she can always tell the whole world that she wasn’t raped but merely sexually abused or the rapist merely make love to her with some forceful aggression. Whether she said this out of fear or merely trying to protect her honour or dignity it make no difference and the reality is she was raped. Technicalities justification is just a “shiok sendiri” comical act.

    Intellectual discourse must not based on Duality concept, i.e either Yes or No, Right or wrong. The answers could be many and multi-dimension.

    Like

  76. Rhan
    Sep 17, 2011 @ 23:56:59

    Ellese
    I acknowledge the values you talking about, it is the values Malaysian shall uphold, but I also see the whole issue from a different perspective, I hope the dialectical approach could liberate Malaysian from the siege mentality that has been haunted us for the past many years. I know it is easier said than done, but I think that is how we get a life in the long run.

    Like

  77. Ellese
    Sep 18, 2011 @ 00:33:09

    No CYC. I did not say you oppose mrt.

    Perhaps I’ll make it short. Do you agree that our mrt be developed based on the land rail model like in HK ie SPAD acquire and develop land around the station so as to offset development cost and sustain it’s operation.

    I can agree on multifaceted intellectual discourse. But values can be clear on the right wrong and grey. To steal for example will always be wrong. To support a group who killed those that defend your honor and family can only have one conclusion :wrongful.

    Like

  78. CYC
    Sep 18, 2011 @ 13:58:28

    Well said, to steal is always wrong. Worst if some steal by capitalising on loopholes of the law. Enriching some unworthy individuals intensified with national interest as an excuse/weapon is definitely punishable if wholesome value system is something to cherish.

    Like

  79. Ellese
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:05:21

    CYC

    I guess you’re not interested to develop proper argument since you digress to answer for the fourth/third time. I suppose you know where it will lead to ie the difficult question on the balance between mrt and financing it and the difficulty to maintain consistency of your argument. Nevermind. Perhaps another time when you want to defend your position.

    Like

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