A lesson in safety!

Immediately after the Japanese tsunami and the Fukushima incident , I wrote about the need to review our planned rare earth plant in Pahang. This was what i wrote then:

While the whole world is now worried about the safety of nuclear plants, after an explosion in one and a possible meltdown in 2 other, I thought it would be wise for anyone, even those eager to see a nuclear plant in Malaysia, to think twice. Or at least wait till further development to see whether the Japanese can contain the nuclear problemsand how serious this would turn out to be before commenting.

 But our minister in charge of our planned nuclear plant has immediately announced that Malaysia would continue with our planned project, without even wanting to wait out further development in Japan. I thought this is really unfair to the people of Malaysia. Not only that, this is also politically unwise to announced this when the whole world is worried about possible nuclear fallouts. I thought a more sensible approach would be to suspend and review any nuclear project that is being planned. We should also take another look at the planned rare earth factory in Pahang.. No planning by man is foolproof. Mother nature has shown it clearly in this case. A country as advanced as Japan is facing potential nucelar meltdown, and we really do not know how bad is the situation, or whether the government there is really transparent in its disclosure..

Many months have passed, and the rare earth project is still being carried out.

Some may say that there is minimal risk to radiation exposure. Some may argue that we may get more radiation travelling in a plane.

Which this may be true, the truth is there is no such thing as a minimal level of safety where radiation is concerned. Prolonged exposure of even low dose radiation is known to cause health problems, radiation risk being cumulative. So if it is avoidable, why should we subject ourselves to a risk, however minimal it may be? It is the same case of many hospitals switching from CATs Scan to MRI( even though in certain instances, a CT scan may have a slight edge  and vice versa) , why risk the radiation when there is a nonradioactive alternative? I personally do not send my patients for Xrays unless it is really  clinically indicated, unless the benefits of obtaining information outweighs the radiation risk, even though the radiation from a chest x ray may be  less than that of air-travel.

I have later  written another article on Lynas  and this is part of the excerpt:

The simple question is : if there is no risk at all to set up a rare earth company, why didn’t the company set this up in Western Australia, near to its source of extraction? It would have saved  millions in shipping cost.

The fact that it has not obtained approval by the authority to set up such a plant in Western Australia ( which has a vast area of unpopulated land),  and it has to set up a plant thousands of miles away from its source of extraction speaks plenty for itself.

If Western Australian authority is concerned about radiation risk, why shouldn’t we be too?

If the safety features of the plant cannot ensure the issuing of a license to operate in Australia, why are we giving a license? Is our standard of safety lower than that of Australia? Are we so hard up on foreign investment that we are willing to risk the health of our people? Isn’t that contrary to the slogan “People first”?

Is the life of a Malaysian less precious than that of a resident of a developed nation?

Germany, which is a country in the forefront of scientific research,  has become the first country to announced that it will slowly wean itself of nuclear plants. Many countries are reevaluating their energy needs and reviewing nuclear options.

It would be prudent for our country to cancel the project or at the very least , shelf it.

Malaysia has already had a bad experience previously in the Bukit Merah Asian rare earth plant.  A US$100 million clean up project has been instituted there, after complaints of birth defects and many cases of leukemia in a community which has not seen any leukaemia cases before.  We should put ourselves in the shoes of those parents who children have contracted leukaemia; how do we feel? Do we want the same thing to happen to our fellow countrymen living near Lynas?

It should be a case of  “once bitten twice shy”, but we are still insisting on something that may bite us another time;  why should we be so careless?

When Chernobyl was built, residents around it were assured that it was safe.  When I was doing my master, we did a very comprehensive study on Chernobyl, because it was a classic case of ‘things-do-not-always-turn-out-to-be-as-planned”.

Similarly, when Fukushima plant was built, people was told that it was very safe. But they did not factor Mother nature into their equation of safety, and  like the proverb ”Man proposes, God disposes’, what was safe turned out to be not safe at all.

In Chernobyl, it was attributed to human error. In Fukushima, it was an act of God.

I have previously mentioned that we cannot be sure that in a Malaysian plant, we would not have any human error.

As a person who has a master degree in occupational medicine, health and safety ( in fact, my master’s dissertation which obtained a distinction  was used as teaching materials for other masters students ), I can say for sure that there will definitely be human error  no matter how careful a person can be. Human nature is such that we are influenced by emotions, illnesses, boredom and our attitude, and any of these factors can cause accident. A moment’s inattention or absent-mindedness often result in accidents in work places, not matter how stringent is the procedures for safety.

In fact, the cardinal rule in occupational safety ( and safety in general) is to remove the hazard whenever it is possible. Only when removal of hazard is not possible, then  we would think of instituting safety measures and work procedure to minimise the risks of that particular  hazard.

Let me give you all a lesson on safety.

Just to use  a very simple example to illustrate this cardinal rule in safety: if there is a protrusion on the floor of a corridor, which may cause tripping whenever people walk along that corridor, it is best (in safety measures) to remove the protrusion.. Only when the protrusion cannot be removed, a safety specialist would think of other ways like erecting a warning sign to warn about the hazard (in this case, the hazard is the protrusion), to make the protrusion more prominent by painting it differently or undertake remodelling work to make the protrusion into a gradual rise and gradual fall.  But apart from removing the hazard, the other measures are not foolproof. People may still trip even when there is a sign, or even if the protrusion is made into s slope.. The only sure way of safety is to remove the hazard.

In the case of Lynas, the hazard is the rare earth, so the safest way is to remove the rare earth; it follows that we should not allow rare earth to be imported and processed.

This is not a political issue; rather an issue of safety which has social implications. If we are a responsible government, we should really pay attention to the concerns and fears of the people staying around the area; those  are real.

So i hope sane minds will prevail, and there is really  no hurry  to set up the plant; Malaysia does not need this type of Foreign investments which are potentially harmful.

Read also these:

Is the life of a Malaysian less precious?

2 fumbling acts

Hooliganism

105 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. klm
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 12:52:02

    Dr. Hsu, you hope sane minds will prevail. The sad things there is no sane mind in Putrajaya. Not in this time. They are blinded by short term personal gain i.e. between now and the next election.

    Like

  2. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 14:11:00

    Dr Hsu

    An article on rare earths from the scientific literature:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10949964

    Posting the above link on “Free Malaysia Today” got the Lynas propagandists all hot and bothered. But this is OK, the stronger the reaction from the other side, the more effective one’s message is turning out to be 🙂

    Like

  3. Kuantanite
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 14:18:14

    Is there even one sane mind in the govt regarding this rare earth plant? Even a peaceful anti lynas Sunday rally was disrupted and the permit withdrawn last minute. How did the authorities expect people, including the Aussie MP to cancel the flight to Msia when he was already here? It’s just a case of money talks, and very loudly.
    The Gebeng plant is comparable to a tenant staying in a house for 12 years rent free, and then the owner has to clean up the mess when he leaves! Malaysia Boleh!

    Like

  4. klm
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 15:06:58

    If I were to work for LYNAS, I would be spreading money around in Putrajaya and in Kuantan to keep up the resolves of the people in charge. That is what I would do. That is if I do not have a conscience. And they are many people without conscience.

    Like

  5. Dr Hsu
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 15:12:21

    Prof Phua

    There are many scientific studies which support what i have mentioned above about even low dose radiation can be harmful..

    Just quote one piece of stanford university news here:
    http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/october26/abrams-102605.html

    [exposure to X-rays and gamma rays, even at low-dose levels, increases risk of cancer. That is the bottom line of a comprehensive five-year study by a National Research Council (NRC) committee that included Stanford’s Herbert L. Abrams, a member of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences.

    “There appears to be no threshold below which exposure can be viewed as harmless,” said Abrams, professor emeritus of radiology at Stanford and Harvard universities and a member in residence at the Center for International Security and Cooperation (CISAC) in the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies}

    Like

  6. Dr Hsu
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 15:20:05

    klm

    That is why Confucius teaching aims to instill morality not only on the aristocrats, on businessmen as well.

    Without morality, businessmen would do anything just for profits.. Like in China, there are the so-called ” black (bad) heart goods” and there is even classes to learn how to be “Badhearted”.. They create things which are not safe to consume but would claims anything under the sun. even pig skin can be turned into bird nests.

    I agree with cilipadi that morality is of utmost important , unfortunately, people only want one M (Money) and not the other M(morality)..

    Like

  7. CYC
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 17:58:02

    Where is Lee Lam Thye, the national chairman of occupational health and safety committee ? What is his stand and why is he so silent? Where has his “people service oriented ” spirit ? Is he too concern with his directorship at GLCs and PLCs?

    Sorry Dr, I remember he being you friend. But what need to be said must be said.

    Like

  8. Ellese
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 19:29:49

    Then you must be consistent. We should ban all persons from smoking. It should not be allowed. It brings more risk. Similarly with flying jet planes. We should travel by… Hmmm …. Cannot use car coz it pollutes. … I don’t know….

    Dr, I think we need to be reasonable and wise weighing competing claims. Theres not enough facts and articulation on the risk. In this case I can’t agree with you.

    I tell you upfront. I am pro nuclear plant despite Hiroshima. Compare to coal gas etc etc it’s the least pollutant. Current technology is safe. And in t long run it’s the cheapest save may be hydro (which is also more environmental unfriendly) . RE is too expensive and not economical.

    It’s like riding planes. If you see air crash it’s worrying but fact is accidents in car is far greater.

    Please don’t categorize those disagreeing as unsane

    Like

  9. Dr Hsu
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 21:11:50

    of course, smoking is bad. 30% of all cancers can be attributed to smoking.. But the important point is , it is all about choice.

    If a person, despite warning on the cigarette pack, still prefers to smoke, it is his choice knowing that the risk of cancer is there.

    But in putting up the rare earth plant, did thepeople around there given a choice? Bukit merah residents did not choose to stay there. They have been there for god knows how many years before the asian rare earth was set up there. They were not given a choice. If given a choice , i am sure most of them would not want the plant to be there.

    Same with flying The pilots , who are at risk of cumulative exposure of cosmic radiation, choose flying as a career, it is their choice. Just like I choose medicine, even though i know that chances of contracting infections are greater than normal persons, I choose it because it is my choice.

    But people around lynas, or rather people of Malaysia, they are not given a choice over this plant. If people are put at risk for a hazard, at least they must have a say whether they accept the risk, just like in smoking, if yu know the risk and still insist n smoking , that is your right, but even so, now increasingly, authorities are putting up rules to do away the risk of inhaling second hand smoke. That is why smoking is not allowed now in planes, in restaurants, in public places.. It is a principle of safety, if smoking is hazardous, remove it from public places where people who object to secondaary smoke need not inhale second hand smoke. And that is what most responsible governments have done in the world.

    Using the principles of smoking, like what ellese has chosen, People who do not like to be put at risk, however small is the risk, should have a say in whether the plant should be allowed to be built. By all means build it in the vast sparsely populated areas of Western australia, if the people there do not object, Just like by all means smoke in your own privacy, as long as you dont put others at risk.

    …………………………..
    To say that anti lynas people have no reasons, the whole article above , using the principles of safety, is reason enough. I leave it to your (my dear readers’)common sense and wisdon to make a judgement whether i have made a case above.

    Like

  10. CYC
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 21:15:25

    Look who is inconsistent ! Now talking about the need to weigh other consideration including cost and convenience. And it is the same person who accused other being inconsistent and take a stand on mrt then debate. What a hypocrite. a debater who also double as the rule setter.

    Like

  11. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 21:58:38

    There’s something called “avoidable risk”.

    Driving a car is unavoidable even though it carries some risk.
    But we can reduce risk by wearing a seat belt when we drive a car.
    Further risk reduction — avoid aggressive driving, keep your car in good
    shape in terms of tyres, brakes etc Do not drink alcohol and drive, and so on

    So, the argument presented above i.e. “we must be consistent” has
    zero merit. Lynas and the tons and tons of toxic wastes it is going to produce is
    a totally avoidable risk to the people of Kuantan area.

    Like

  12. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 22:09:10

    The 4 principles of biomedical ethics are :
    autonomy (patient has right to make his or her own informed decision)
    beneficence (do good)
    non-maleficence (do not do harm)
    justice (who benefits and who bears the costs?)

    Lynas project violates all 4 principles completely.

    Especially the autonomy principle and the justice principle

    Kuantan area residents vehemently reject the plant but it is being forced down our throats
    Kuantan area residents are going to bear the costs in terms of bad health and damage to property values, destruction of tourist and fisheries industries. Question: who benefits from the “indemnity fund” which Lynas was foolish enough to mention earlier in the controversy? How much is it and who is “managing” the funds? Is the term “indemnity fund” an euphemism for something else?

    Like

  13. JYC
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 22:18:16

    Ellese

    on one hand you are asking the doctor to be consistent and quote some silly examples ignoring competing claims and personal choice, on the other you suggest competing claims and not enough facts(bukit merah is staring at you). You cherry picking? i thought the doctor had done the latter,

    Now i am not so sure about ellese providing good arguments anymore. maybe to lit fire till the good doc has no time for anything except putting them out.

    Like

  14. Ellese
    Oct 14, 2011 @ 23:54:39

    No doc. The anti lynas movement did not allow the public to make informed decision. The way it’s explained they have not told what is an acceptable level in other countries. They have not told us what exposure level of other mundane risk. They have not told people its different from bukit merah. They have not told the public the level of exposure og just being alive. They have purposely omitted this information.

    Now back to kuantan resident, can you tell me what is the exposure level you’re referring to? Not the exposure to the employees but to the public? I cannot get this out from any anti lynas proponent. Please tell us. If want you can refer me to the blogs/referric source for me to read.

    Like

  15. streetfighter
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 00:51:59

    I think your answer is been fulffiled by doc,Ellese.Why can’t you wait for cili(note:doc love cili) to say something?Cili is the assistant of HM and he takes care of this classsroom..right or wrong is for us to decide..don’t simply blame any sly,partisan and selfish visitors or doc for your own benefit or selfish purpose.

    HM makan cili,assistant rasa pedas.

    Like

  16. Rhan
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 01:16:59

    “morality is of utmost important” is like telling us eat rice and drink water is utmost important🙂

    Kongzi concept of morality, unlike Kant and Laozi, is straight forward and easy to understand. It is some sort of guidance and rule inherit from Zhou dynasty, his most famous quote is “Don’t do to others what you don’t want others to do to you”.

    I read through an excellent debate between Ellese and one Amus on Lynas that delve into technicality which I have to admit I don’t understand at all, however my stance is solely base on Kongzi simple guide, if those that agree to Lynas have no issue even the plant is being located close to where they stay, then I believe their contention is pretty convincing, but how can we find out?

    Beside radiation, another concern is with the waste treatment which Hsu never mentioned much in his article, I still find it puzzle why we want to allow such controversial investment, what extra benefit that Lynas could bring in compare to any other type of investment?

    Like

  17. aiz
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 10:46:11

    Lynas, would create 350 highly skilled jobs and 500 indirect jobs. In commercial mode it would contribute at least US1.7 billion in annual exports which is equivalent to about 1% of our GDP. It is a FDI project which as at today RM1.32 billion has been invested and there will be a further RM200.0 million in incremental investment. Nevertheless, in the rare earth elements [REE] there is a metal called thorium which is slightly radioactive. The radioactive elements from the thorium can cause environmental problems and potential health hazard.

    Dr. Alvin Martin Weinberg [1915 – 2006], proposed that a Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor [LFTR], which is a much safer and cheaper alternative to uranium, would be able to solve the world’s energy problem for more than 1000 years. LFTR is cleaner, simpler and cheaper to build. It also cuts nuclear waste by 50 per cent. However, Dr. Weinberg was subsequently sacked by the administration and the project was discontinued.

    According to Nobel laureate Carlo Rubbia, thorium can produce 200 times the amount of energy as an equal weight of uranium, or a staggering 3.5 million times that of the same weight of coal. [Please watch the short video from this link http://energyfromthorium.com/ ].

    Unlike uranium, thorium is difficult to be converted into nuclear weapons. Conversely, a thorium base reactor can also consume the nuclear waste that is currently being stored in numerous storage facilities around the world. As such, perhaps, it can possibly be further developed as a nuclear defense against the nuclear attack.

    I am nonetheless sympathetic to the protests over Lynas because of the radiation risks it poses. I wonder why Nick Curtis wants to bring the refinery here. I guess, it must be the strict and stringent safety requirements of the Australian government. I would love to read the safety review by the independent panel of experts on Lynas. Can anyone give me the link, please.

    Apart from Lynas, I am also very concern on the smog from the car industry, the toxic waste from the chemical industry, the pollution and acid rains from the coal-fired IPPs too. And I think we should also shut down the tobacco industry. Cigarette smoke has more than 4,000 carcinogenic-cancer-causing-compounds, plus 400 other toxins: A potential health hazard which has killed far more people than Chernobyl and Fukushima.

    Thorium is abundantly available in many countries including our beloved country, Malaysia. I would rather our government allocates and spend more money on LFTR research rather than sending our scientists to space, the moon and the stars.

    [p/s: I must agree with Ellese in this post that the situation in Bukit Merah is very much different from Lynas].

    Like

  18. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 10:56:58

    Prolonged exposure to radioactive
    However tiny
    Is bad for human, animal, plant, environment
    Why then arguing on level of exposure?
    Why talk about Bukit Merah?
    You hope to see more people there deformed?
    You never read news about how people there suffer?

    I will not plant cilipadi near to the plant
    Even if given a piece of land
    I suggest you shift there to stay, Ellese
    You dare?

    Ellese makan radioactive, dia rasa pedas

    Like

  19. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 11:06:28

    Talk so much
    If such a plant build next to your house
    You want?
    Answer me first
    Then we talk about economical benefits
    Money isn’t anything
    Your can’t bring them along to Allah, God or whoever

    Don’t be so selfish
    Look at money only
    As if you don’t have enough money
    To live comfortably
    Will they use the money from Lynas to pay RM450 billion debts?

    siapa makan cili, dia rasa pedas

    Like

  20. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 14:26:12

    Dear Rhan,

    Thought kants universality test was more instructive in this case. If we follow Kant if you start banning these type of/similar activities it will create inconsistency and irrationalities. Thus it should be a moral impediment.

    Let me briefly explain. The radiation exposure to public is either non existent or very very limited. There are many other mundane activities which are more dangerous to health. Say for example smoking. In natural form these radiation already permeats everywhere. As written before even eating 600 banana is like one x ray exposure. Within 2/3 years if you eat daily you’ll get exposed. I will try not to be technical.

    But point is if one is for banning such activities then one should also ban many other mundane activities and this in Kant is the inconsistencies and irrationalness of the moral maxim. I can even accept this inconsistency if there is totally no benefit. But here there’s huge multiplier benefits to the society. We must weigh reasonably.

    Like

  21. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 14:39:02

    Dear cilipadi

    If you smoke eat bananas use x ray or fly commercial planes, you’re a total hypocrite.

    Why don’t you answer this simple question how much radiation level you think public is exposed to which affect their health? I tell you the answer: practically NONE. Go read the report. You’re making a mountain out of the molehill.

    If you want why don’t we do this. Tell me your level of exposure that so much bother you with lynas that should be banned. We then list all other activities to be banned having higher than your level. What say you for once you write with justification and rationale.

    Like

  22. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 14:55:15

    Good write Aiz.

    Can i suggest you also explain what is the acceptable standard in the world including US EPA standards as well.

    Then can I suggest you also write the natural radiation we face just by living on this planet earth. From natural rocks air etc including our house clothing and lifestyle. tell them about our drinking water as well. Since were biased about Malaysia, why not use water standards in US. Theyve been drinking it for years and ages. Tell them the risk.

    Then tell them the level at lynas. When I first debated there was no IAEA report. But now the report further strengthen my argument.

    Tell me then whether the objection is reasonable.

    Like

  23. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 15:01:34

    Why bring in banana into discussion?
    Radiation radioactive is the topic
    You eat a lot of cilipadi at one go also not good for you
    You prolonged eating cilipadi bit by bit is good for you
    But, prolonged exposure to radiation is bad for us
    No matter how low is the radioactive

    Low level of radioactive is ok if the exposure is not prolonged
    Prolonged exposure is bad, should be avoided
    Just like we take x-ray, we were exposed once in a while
    Fair answer?

    siapa makan cili, dia rasa pedas

    Like

  24. Kuantanite
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 15:26:53

    Even an Australian understands our plight.

    Like

  25. CYC
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 15:53:25

    Talk is cheap. But it is a fact that most pharmacists avoid taking medicines they sold though telling loud and clear to the whole world that it is safe to consume. They trust natural immunity till have no choice left. Why ?

    Knowledge should be used to benefit mankind and it is inexcusable for those elites who used to enrich themselves or SOLELY to please their paymaster.

    Like

  26. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 16:00:29

    Cilipadi obviously you’ve not read. Where do you stay overseas? If available I’ll probably tell you the prolong exposure you receive. If higher than lynas would you move out of your adopted country to lynas since it has less prolong radiation. Hope it’s available. (ps there’s prolong exposure of radiation everywhere. Anyway did you fly to your new country. I hope not coz it’s probably a prolong journey.:-))

    Anyway this kind of argument does not lead to anywhere kan cilipadi.

    Let’s argue with basis. I repeat what is the exposure level of lynas you’re objecting to? Please note the exposure level is on a per year basis (quite prolong:-) srry can’t resist that)

    Ps hope you don’t divert and make me ask thrice.

    Like

  27. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 16:29:14

    Ok, let us argue with basis
    Don’t bring in banana, smoking,…Where you divert
    Assumed I agree with you on the basis of
    Lynas radioactive prolonged exposure is no harm
    But, to the residents of Gebeng Kuantan, they are not convinced
    Would you agree Lynas build next to your house?

    Answe me first
    Yes or No?

    Yes makan cili, No rasa pedas

    Like

  28. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 16:53:50

    Let me remind you, Ellese
    You haven’t answered me my other questions

    Try your best to answer them
    Even if the answers are not good
    Or else ……

    If you scared pedas, don’t makan
    Or else rasa pedas

    siapa makan cili, dia rasa pedas

    Like

  29. streetfighter
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 16:57:17

    Ellese,banana is good for health but not Lynas.Why Australia government and its citizens opposed it to be built in their country?You should know the reason is obviously the hazard it causes to the environment,people,plants(including cili),animals(Big Dog included) ect.So no need to argue the exposure level like kangkung belacan professor or sambal cili expert.We should be like Australians who think and concern about national safety above anything else.Definitely No to Lynas!!

    cili makan banana dia rasa lausai.

    Like

  30. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 17:12:00

    Dr Hsu

    Your blog is making a real impact.

    Now we have at least three BN propagandists as regular commentators on your blog.
    (One of them recently ousted from Din Merican’s cerebral blog)
    Congratulations!

    Like

  31. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 18:21:46

    Dear cilipadi.

    Youve still not answerEd. I have asked twice earlier and then you want me to answer yours.

    No assumption. State what level of lynas exposure you’ve been objecting thus far? Yours an easy answer but the answer to mine either shows your integrity or simply an excuse argument similar to your incoherent opposition to deficit spending.

    If you can’t answer for the third time, you’re not worth the salt.

    Like

  32. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 18:40:50

    Are you blind?
    Or you can’t understand my English.

    Any level of Lynas exposure
    I object
    I want Lynas out of Gebeng Kuantan
    And anywhere near your house
    I want it out of Malaysia

    Is that clear to you?
    You draw a monster
    You don’t draw it’s intestines
    Are you so low IQ to know that
    Gebeng Kuantan folks don’t want Lynas exposure at any level?

    Keep asking level of exposure
    Bring in banana somemore
    No brainer or what

    siapa makan cili, dia rasa pedas

    Like

  33. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 18:41:48

    Dear phua

    I will defend my integrity on din Merican. What I write was similar to here. Some extreme pr suppoter took offence and went animal calling. I do not take it like others and reply in equal measure. But didn’t realize this was dins crony. He deleted my comments and left the animal name calling. I demand fairness and equal treatment. He deleted all my comments without reasons. Had no choice to tell my part of the story to the world in an anti din Merican blog.

    Din does not believe in free speech fairness and equality. This story I will tell the world.

    So phua please note I have my own views. I read my own books and writings. No one in bn knows me. They don’t argue like me. I write because I think we’ve moved in the wrong direction.

    In this lynas, I told you upfront I’m for nuclear plant for many reasons. To me the rationale for Objecting lynas is too superficial. We’ve not come to debate on nuclear power plant and if we do you will realize this simpleton argument is very unreasonable in the scheme of things. Might as well we keep polluting our air environment water etc etc because of this totally absolutely no radiation policy. We might as well ban everything (sarcasm).

    Like

  34. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 18:53:33

    This nut head think he is so high IQ
    Keep asking what level of Lynas exposure
    If I give her a level
    Mean I agree Lynas in Gebeng Kuantan

    I may have low IQ
    But definitely higher than him

    Else makan cili, nut head rasa pedas

    Like

  35. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 18:58:08

    I thought so. You can’t even say any level. You cant even say lynas radiation exposure is less or more than eating banana or flying commercial jets. I’ll help you. It’s in the IAEA report. Read it. Come back to me.And then I’ll show you a comparison table of what the radiation we have around us. If you say where you are I probably can dig in your local exposure level. Are you in US?

    Like

  36. Ellese
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 19:08:08

    Dear streetfighter,

    Because of potassium, eating 600 hundred bananas actually is equivalent to an exposure of one x ray.

    Please read or google lah a bit. Everytime you disagree you categorize people as kangkung. If that’s the case all incredibly intelligent nuclear scientists in the wirld and those at IAEA are kangkung lah. You are better than them is it?

    Be a bit diligent. Google IAEA report. Let’s argue with basis to find out the crux of the issue rather than categorizing persons. Just because you disagree with the finding does not mean they are kangkung.

    Like

  37. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 19:41:03

    I see here
    From this someone
    The attitude and arrogance of
    Umno
    Who can use anything to justify their arrogance
    Including banana
    That will lead to their own down fall coming GE

    Vote Pakatan for my behalf
    Malaysians

    LOL, at least he is honest he was chased out from some blogs
    What for explain? I can understand

    Keep your attitude and continue your arrogancy
    Funeral is what your party is heading
    Sad since they allow me to stay here for quite long

    Attitude makan cili, Umno rasa pedas

    Like

  38. Rhan
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 19:48:48

    Normally this would be too stupid to merit any response, but i do it for the sake of generosity. The basis of some here saying that others are BN propagandists is….? Let me guess…is it because they disagree with you?

    Like

  39. aiz
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 20:45:45

    Prof… Should I not expect an ‘intellectual’ of your calibre at least check a few basic facts and your choice of words before putting pen to paper?

    Like

  40. cilipadi
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 21:39:20

    Well, the scholar was feeding some cili
    Those who ate, rasa pedas
    That’s normal
    One one cunning fox refuses to eat cili

    Enough of cilipadi feeding for today
    Tired to feed cilis to the lousy stubborn arrogant attitude propagandist
    Unless he wnats more…..

    AP makan cili, AP rasa pedas

    Like

  41. streetfighter
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 22:19:26

    Aiyoh Ellese,why are you so ignorant or is it sheer kangkung?When people have choices and want to avoid unnecessary hazard,that’s their right.How sure are you with those scientists finding?See what happened to Bukit Merah disaster case.Can you explain that?You seem to think you’re the most intelligent person here,teaching everyone,quoting this and that scientists or reports and bragging non-stop.
    Since you are so gung-ho and even bragged you have debated many included monsterball,go lah and brag at Lim Kit Siang’s blog if you dare.He is waiting for you.

    Like

  42. CYC
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 22:21:37

    I want to debate and also want to be the judge at the same time. Why so ? Because by shifting the goal post I will be the winner.

    Haha… Homeguru is not a guru.. it is just a website…. garbage it garbage out. The garbage may not be useless if you use and analyse it intelligently, otherwise it remain garbage.

    Like

  43. monsterball
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 22:24:05

    I am reading and sick of Ellese’s bragging.

    Like

  44. monsterball
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 22:42:46

    Ellese bragged that she has met many
    “monsterball” in the streets ..debated and won.
    Such a stupid statement expecting all to believe her.
    I don’t debate with kucin kuraps….crabs and itchify type.
    Li Li Fa is a MAN….you smart ass.
    I am FOR or AGAINST….not debate.
    Declare yourself…FOR or AGAINST and why….then we can debate.
    All the comments she made…are useless junks and nothing important to Malaysians daily lives…and when an important issue is being discussed….out come her promotional campaign…feeling…licking…rubbing with no shame…glorifying Mahathir and Najib…to help her BN father or what??…get paid to do it??
    She just want attentions OR like Prof. Puah said…BN propagandists have come.
    StreetFighter….well done!
    Put her into tong sampah..where she belongs.

    Like

  45. monsterball
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 22:46:55

    Sure he is CYC..shifting goal post with no shame.
    StreetFighter can put cilipadi in his pocket.
    Turncoats are traitors…worst than Ellese.

    Like

  46. monsterball
    Oct 15, 2011 @ 22:58:36

    What to debate on a subject where Australia does not want it …when it is an Australian company making it…and Najib wants it in Malaysia..as if Malaysian Govt. are smarter than Australians technology inputs.
    Defence ideas to spend billions and make 10%…. finished.
    He must have a project to spend billions that is supposedly good for the country and people…like defence..and no 2/3 majority needed to bulldoze it through…..but PR is shouting loud and clear…thus 2/3 majority needed and therefore…waste of time to talk about it.
    It will not materialized.
    But you can bet….Trenggannu folks will not forget Najib plan to have the nuclear plant at that State.
    That’s enough on this nonsense.

    Like

  47. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 07:04:23

    Thanks cilipadi.

    It confirmed my suspicion again that you argue merely for the sake of arguing just like the fiscal deficit.you write simply for one purpose ie to show bn is wrong and really do not know about the subject matter. In this matter it worse. After three times asking the same question you still fail to answer this very basic question which is the crux to this issue. I knew you didn’t know but wanted to see whether in earnest you will try to search for the truth. I then provided you with a very credible easy reference just to see whether there’s deep inside you the need to find out the truth. I then lay out my approach so that you won’t be surprise and if against no how to counter.

    Your giving up on the issue on the pretense of tiredness and went personal shows it all. You don’t care for the truth. Again confirm my assertion that many decide the right and wrong on who they support and not on the action itself. You may think you can write good pantun and escape all these issues by migrating or you may think you’ve provided all the cilis, but people can see through these pretensions and superficialities.

    That’s why cilipadi I told you I don’t want to entertain you. But you have this thinking that everybody will makan your cili and rasa pedas and thought I’d be taken in. Always tempt me to write in to you. Now twice I’ve caught you writing not knowing about what you wrote.

    So why not like this. So long as you write to others providing the cilis I leave you alone. I will write as usual on issues and ask you not to cross or make reference to my issues. But if you go personal in particular name calling as I told you I don’t like it and will respond in equal verve. Agreeable?

    Like

  48. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 07:28:04

    Streetfighter,

    Please don’t start. You’re in a worse position than cilipadi. You have not articulated any points or basis. Mere regurgitation. I bet you haven’t even read the IAEA report which actually counter all your first base superficial arguments. Im not spoon-feeding you. Please read it if you really want to put a right stand. If you want to put a partisan stand I’m not bothered. You do what you want coz in this argument even ifpr says the world is flat you will also say it’s correct. I’m not interested.

    Like

  49. ctruth
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 07:45:30

    why not settle this with this experiment.
    we collect fund to buy a house 1 km from lynas plant.
    For those who said lynas low level radiation is safe can then stay in the house for 3 year with following conditions:
    1) the subject must be a couple with a pregnant wife
    2) after baby is born stay in the house for 3 years.

    let the baby expose to low level radiation during pregnancy and for 3 years after baby is born. after 3 years, do a medical check up to determine health of baby and adults..
    so those of you who said low level radiation is safe can take this offer. Free accommodation provided.
    I will start the ball rolling by donating RM1000.00 to the fund for this experiment.
    Dr Hsu, can manage the fund. If there is excess amount after buying the house, can also offer free food.

    Like

  50. cilipadi
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 08:17:10

    Such is the attitude of people in UMNO
    Greed, arrogant and ignorant
    Dig your own grave then
    The deeper, the better

    Don’t compare the fighter monster with cilipadi
    Go entertain him instead, he and you are the same clique

    Ellese makan cili, siapa rasa pedas?

    Like

  51. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 09:44:22

    See. Being personal. Just because you are not able to respond you accuse me of being an arrogant UMNO person without proof or basis. Please don’t start this wild useless allegation. Remember I can do likewise.making sweeping baseless allegation is easy to do.

    Like

  52. streetfighter
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 09:57:09

    Ellese is alike what monsterball said a kucin kurap commentator.
    Look at the way she writes,like a school teacher.
    Putting words into my mouth and reply, that’s blardy out-dated stuff.
    PR said the world is flat?Another kangkung analysis!
    Are you saying PR politicians are idiots, living in the world of yesteryears?
    She keep on making the excuse asking monsterball 3 times and get no answer and therefore no responding to monsterball.
    Come on Ellese,he eats more salt than you eating rice.
    Say you are afraid to respond, all will understand.
    What about his last comment?

    Ellese makan cili,Alien Padi lausai banana.

    Like

  53. aiz
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 10:37:17

    We have our own personal/family background, ideal and reality.

    Irrespective of our political ideology and inclination, the reality is we are in a multi-civilizational and multi-cultural environment. Why can’t we rediscover and renovate ourselves and enrich and enlighten each other with synthesis and mutual respect or perhaps co-operation? Why is that a difference/divergent of opinion or to make one’s idea or ideal [so to speak] more central and more comprehensible is a taboo unless of course it is in tangent with this post or most commentators?

    A fresh breath of reality needs to be breathed deep, however painful the coughing fit it is likely to produce.

    It does not matter to whom it is directed but the words “kucing kurap” are too strong for my ears.

    It is time for me to say goodbye to this blog. One should not outstay one’s welcome. With kind regards and blessings.

    Like

  54. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:03:10

    I have never seen a woman so arrogant and boastful like Ellese in real life or in Internet.
    Pick on cilipadi and Streetfighter..ignoring me.
    What does she know so much that Malaysians are interested to read and learn?
    She said..”ifpr says the world is flat you will also say it’s correct”…a statement with an answer all by herself to build up an insult….to Streetfighter.
    To cilipadi….she treat him like a school boy and she is the teacher.
    I can only conclude this Ellese is a very very lonely woman.
    Sad…cilipadi is too young for her….so she insults him.
    She is a book worm…speaking out of text books knowledge and know next to nothing about real life.
    She said…to cilipadi…”See. Being personal. Just because you are not able to respond you accuse me of being arrogant UMNO person without proof or basis”
    How about she accusing PR politicians as idiots…still think the world is flat?
    She has not one bit of gratitude towards Lim Kit Siang exposing all the corruptions committed by UMNO b crooks….went to jail for doing that .. or is it…she thinks all these 40 years all corruptions exposed are all lies?
    I want to debate on subjects that are important to all Malaysians…and not debate for the fun of it.
    On nuclear plant…I have spoken.
    Why not Ellese rebut my comment?

    Like

  55. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:11:22

    She cannot rebut me…..for she study from text books and surf around on nuclear plant subjects and start talking cock and bull here.
    She does not even know about the power of 2/3 majority.
    She is still dreaming how powerful BN is….which I suspect her future depends on BN now…winning the 13th GE..
    But who knows….she can be snaky and hero worship PR leaders too..once BN loose control.
    You can never tell.
    That’s why..no man wants to marry her.

    Like

  56. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:18:54

    azi….don’t be too sensitive.
    “kucin kurap”…means small fry….ikan bilis….what’s too strong for your ears?
    Stay….comment and learn.

    Like

  57. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:24:29

    Dear monsterball

    You are the most incoherent rambler here. If you want proper debate finding out in earnest the truth and issues please write properly structurally with courtesy. But I don’t think you want that simply for a number of reasons I don’t want to mention now. So please focus and not be personal. This seems to be a good courteous blog. So I will try not to Resort to reply in equal fashion like yours for the time being. But be forewarn I can reply in equal verve. Your style of reply does not need intelligence.

    Like

  58. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:28:42

    Streetfighter

    Don’t divert. Let’s get to the issue. Have you read the IAEA report?

    Like

  59. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:40:25

    Ellese I am waiting for your equal fashion reply.
    To be courteous to you?
    Are you joking?
    You brag and belittle others..all OK.
    You read certain reports…and use that report to debate?
    StreetFighter…you do not need to read that IAEA report.
    It is a low class sickening method by Ellese to divert attentions from real issues Malaysians are interested…or she is trying to keep proving she i the smartest here.
    Ellese….you cannot read and attain my intelligence.
    “Resort to reply in equal fashion like yours”
    Do it….don’t talk nonsense to me.
    The likes of you…belongs to the gutters.

    Like

  60. streetfighter
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:50:07

    Ellese,there is no need to go to this and that issue of yours.Just respect that the people in Kuantan have the right to reject Lynas because the whole world knows this kind of plant is not safe as previously couple of cases alike happened as disasters.Don’t try to be smart and quote this or that reports.Why not you explain why Australians rejected this plant(Lynas) in their country?

    Like

  61. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 11:54:32

    Yes I want proper debate….like who killed Atlantuya…Teoh Beng Hock…Kugan.
    I want a debate on PKFZ 12.5 billion ripped off. Do you believe Ling did all that by himself?
    How about the debate of the two budget?
    What about current issue like Najib telling Koh Tsu Koon…UMNO b will not interfere with Gerakan on taking back Penang from DAP…why he said that?
    I say MCA and Gerakan are puppets and shoe shine boys to Najib…lets debate on this.
    See so many issues that are interesting to Malaysians.
    Do you believe Mahathir when he said…”I forgot” 14 times…being questioned by RC at Lingam case?
    The panel said M was lying and recommended he be charged and go to court for lying.
    Why was he not charged at all?
    What about the 2 Submarines …..now more than RM700 millions commission paid out by Najib?
    Come on Ellese….debate on issues Malaysians want to know the whole truth.
    I can write pages upon pages to debate.
    Lets see how smart you are.

    Like

  62. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 12:04:32

    Ellese…you wrote at 11.30 am.
    I responded at 11.40am.
    Don’t make me wait….choose a subject and lets debate.

    Like

  63. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 12:13:17

    Kahkahkah. That’s a good one monsterball. You can’t even debate on this point you want to debate on others.

    People like you typically don’t have capacity to argue and in all scenarios resort to name calling.
    So far you’ve called me kucing kurap, a lonely woman teacher (very sexist) Bo

    Like

  64. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 12:17:06

    A simple reply to which subject to debate…Ellese keep silence for 20 minutes.
    This shows she has lots of time to waste.
    I will give her another 10 minutes.
    If no reply….she is a coward and an empty vessel making the most noise.
    I will be back few hours later….after 10 minutes.
    If she respond..I will stay on.

    Like

  65. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 12:25:04

    See how Ellese respond?
    A coward she is….making so much noise with a book brain.
    Get lost Ellese.
    You can’t disguise your stupidity with a laugh.
    Only a fool will laugh at all the subjects I put out for debates.

    Like

  66. monsterball
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 12:28:18

    ‘You can’t debate on this point you want to debate on other”
    What point are you talking about?
    Are you good in fishing?

    Like

  67. streetfighter
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 13:46:57

    monsterball,Ellese is like a merry-go-round.She does not have a point for direction to go about.Let’s wait for her to go around her trip and come back here.

    Like

  68. cilipadi
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 15:05:22

    ctruth, I agree with your idea
    Let’s start the project with Ellese staying there
    I bet he wouldn’t dare to take up the challenge
    She can talk this and that
    Telling people to read IEAE report
    IEAE expert didn’t dare to come face to face with Gebeng Kuantan people
    But want people to read and rely on their report?
    You must be a fool to do that.
    What had happened to Chernobyl?
    Is it not a living example for radiation disaster?

    Back to you, Ellese
    Dare to take up the challenge?

    Ellese prolonged exposure to radiation, see if she is still ok after that

    siapa makan cili, dia rasa pedas

    Like

  69. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 19:59:34

    Best thing to do is not waste time and bandwidth debating
    BN propagandists. They are not here for intelligent and fair debate.

    Their main aims are (in accordance with the wishes of their BN paymasters):

    1) To disrupt serious discussions
    on important issues by luring you into “flame wars”.

    Solution: just ignore their remarks (unless the remarks have sufficient merit)

    2) To give the impression that there is significant support for the UMNO-BN
    position

    Solution: Perhaps Dr Hsu can do what Anil Netto does i.e. allow
    readers to vote up or down the comment. But on Anil Netto’s blog
    one pro-BN person named “Gerakan K” keeps posting stupid remarks even though
    he is outvoted 1 to 30 (or more) again and again! 🙂

    Like

  70. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 20:07:20

    I should thank Dr Hsu for establishing a good quality blog.

    Also, I appreciate Kenny’s and KLM’s high quality comments.
    Learned a lot from you!

    Cheers

    Like

  71. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 20:15:02

    monsterball and streetfighter,

    First I need to apologize to both of you. I was writing my reply but couldn’t finish it as I had to attend to other things. That’s why my sentence was incomplete. But somehow it was sent out. Maybe my son have intentionally pressed “publish”. Next time I will take steps not to send incomplete comments.

    Nevertheless thought that the reaction by you monsterball was really unnecessarily and in fact quite funny. Had a good laugh. Thanks for the entertainment though. You monsterball actually waited for me and became uptight and angry with name calling me, all by your own account and conduct. Funny thing is that I was not aware of it tending my weekend chore just now. You are uptight for a position you yourself caused. Cool down a bit man or you’ll get a heart attack.

    Anyway apart from lonely lady and kucing kurap you’ve now called me coward. What I wanted to finish was off was that arguments with people like you will definitely lead to name calling. There’s absolutely nothing you can offer but name calling. What I want to suggest is that we don’t waste time and immediately strart with name calling. So far its been very uncreative childish name calling. You can do better. Apa macam man? We don’t need to use intelligence in this type of debate. You as a proud guy, I will allow you to start first. What say you?

    P.s dr hsu, need to confirm whether you allow this kind of name calling exchange which invariably affect the level of debate. Don’t believe monsterball and streetfighter are your cronies but nonetheless, if you give the greenlight I will do likewise. In the meantime I will listen to how creative these two chaps in name calling. What say you doc? (M n Streetf you may start at any time.)

    Like

  72. Ellese
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 20:20:10

    Cilipadi

    Thought you gave up already. Again before I respond, can you answer now the question you’ve been avoiding and been asked for more than three times ( srry I lost count). Have you read the IAEA?

    Like

  73. Rhan
    Oct 16, 2011 @ 22:13:17

    I think the best thing is carry on not to extricate your head from the tightly packed sand which currently encases it, so that you don’t have to reveal your incapacity to debate. Classroom is the best place to continue showing off your “intelligence”.

    I know medical school usually don’t teach this, I don’t mind share the simple copy paste from wikipedia : “Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one’s opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but apparent character flaws or actions that are irrelevant to the opponent’s argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent’s personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent’s arguments or assertions.”

    Like

  74. Ellese
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 06:05:38

    Dear phua,

    Given you’re an academic professor and my earlier explanation, it’s very disappointing that you chose to counter argument not by rebutting the issue, but by devaluing the maker through categorization. It’s just like bush arguing those who are against him as in an axis of evil so as to colour any debate on the issues.

    My approach has been reasonable. Anti lynas propagandist are arguing it is dangerous due to radiation. I ask why and what because I have read the IAEA report. To me the anti lynas propagandist has not been making full disclosure of the issue. Some resorted to twisting facts.This is wrong. To date you can see for yourself that none can actually justify their stand and has even read the IAEA argument. 

    You phua should be above all this as an academic. You have an academic reputation to protect. Never be like chin huat. In his haste to be partisan he quoted datas which he thought others wouldn’t read. When I pointed out that his data actually goes against his contention it just devalued his stature as an academic.

    You seemed to be following this all out partisan mindset. Anyone against an issue is pro bn propagandist. By such logic, the IAEA experts are bn propagandist. All Nuclear scientist and experts are bn propagandist. Even two PAS scientists who admit that Fauziah was wrong are propagandist. Might as well include Einstein as the father of bn propagandist. You see there are many nuclear plants around the world and people stay in nearby vicinity. They’ve not moved out despite Fukushima. Why? Many know how to distinguish irrational fear mongering from the truth.

    Worse you don’t realize that I can easily call you a pr propagandist, PR blind follower propagandist  and even anti reading propagandist to colour your argument. Even Worse if I’m like one extreme blind pr supporter here, devalue you by calling you a kangkung professor. As it is I’ve already been accused as such. But,point is, can’t you see that it leads to nowhere but to satisfy one’s egos.

    So doc, if you are really anti linas why not help them (cilipadi monsterball and streetfighter). Tell them how the IAEA report was structured. If you want to spoonfeed, you refer them to the relevant pages and provide them with proper cogent argument to counter. Isn’t this a better way of debate. It will definitely not besmirched you and your institution’s reputation.

    Like

  75. cilipadi
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 07:26:00

    Oops, early in the morning
    She is performing stunt
    Good luck to you
    Don’t fall out of the safety net
    What other stunts are you going to perform today?

    IEAE report again?
    Don’t lah, boringlah
    Keep to yourself
    Use it as your toilet rolls would be better

    IEAE makan cili, people rasa boring

    Like

  76. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 08:11:44

    Hi Ellese

    I won’t waste my precious time debating with you.

    I will only make one comment:

    You don’t need to have read Das Kapital in full in order to comment on the ideas of Karl Marx. Neither do you need to have read the IAEA report in full in order to debate what it says. All you need to know are the main arguments of both.

    If you want to debate with me as an academic, then disclose your full identity first.
    Do not hide behind “Ellese” if you are a true (right-wing) academic.
    This is a basic rule of academia.

    Like

  77. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 08:19:42

    Hi Rhan

    You can call me what you like i.e. implying I am a show-off.
    I have better things to do with my time than “showing-off” in blogs.
    (Such as “corrupting young minds” like Socrates 🙂 )

    So what? (I have been called all sorts of names by right-wing defenders of the status quo and BN corruption. You forgot to call me “Communist”, by the way)

    What matters to us academics is ideas and debates over ideas.

    BTW: I help advise the Other Side on political strategy. Such as advising
    them -successfully – to mobilise support from the Overseas Malaysians and ex-Malaysians who have been driven to seek their fortunes overseas because of Malaysia’s semi-apartheid system of institutionalised discrimination. So, don’t reveal too much of UMNO-BN secrets to me !

    Like

  78. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 08:22:02

    I respect Wong Chin Huat immensely for the quality of his political analyses and for his political activism. (HIs political analyses are high quality)

    UMNO-BN should fear effective scholar-activists like him!

    Like

  79. Phua Kai Lit
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 08:30:01

    Dear Dr Hsu

    Allow me to post one more comment.
    Good website to check out periodically:

    http://savemalaysia-stoplynas.blogspot.com/

    Like

  80. cilipadi
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 09:11:28

    Even if your intention is good
    That is without ill motive
    And offer to help whoever you think requires assistance
    If he or she DECLINE your help
    You should not FORCE them to accept your help

    So, same thing here
    As a responsible gomen
    You think Lynas is good, because IEAE report said so
    But people, especially those live nearby the plant, don’t want the plant
    And you FORCE them to accept it and allow Lynas in Gebeng, Kuantan
    If this is not arrogance, what is?

    I, as a non-Malaysian
    See the Umno gomen, Umno people as ARROGANT lot
    Only way to stop them is to VOTE UMNO BN OUT for good
    To stop Lynas, even if it already in operation when Pakatan take over the gomen.

    Enough is said.
    If they want to continue performing stunts, and allowed by the owner
    Who am I an outsider to say they can’t?

    Umno makan cili, Gomen rasa arrogant.

    Like

  81. Rhan
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 10:48:55

    Phua, let me start with Chin Huat first, I read the debate btw ellese and chin huat on gini in TNG, if I recall correctly, ch argument take into consideration of race and class while ellese is on overall, so I think they are not argue the same thing and it is not fair to claim ch is wrong or funny, but the point I want to bring out is ch argued with facts instead of telling ellese off by claiming that he is this or he is that.

    Your retort to ellese is fair by bringing up the academia context, I fully support your assertion and stance, what I feel uncomfortable is your propagandist name calling, is that not what exactly like you what mention wrt the rightist?

    I know what people like u, chin huat and josh hong did, I have utmost respect of what you people have done, and that place u all in a more distinctive position and with high expectation from readers like us, I don’t expect you to rebut in the way some here did.

    My apology on my previous comment to you. Sorry very rush.

    Like

  82. monsterball
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 11:36:33

    Strange….a man calling a Doc “shu” ….and a Prof. …”Phua” …with no respect to their professions…..and never offer condolences out of respect to blog owner….is teaching others…how to have manners.
    I am sure Professor Phua is not impressed.
    I am so glad Prof. Phua spoke his mind out with no reservations. against Ellese.
    Now let Doc decides….who are the good and bad guys in his blog.
    Ellese need not ask permission from Doc to her threats to me.
    Shoot your worst and pick a subject I put out…to debate…if you dare.
    Like cilipadi said….it’s boring same old stuffs.
    And like Prof.Phua ….I am ready for whoever he/she too.

    Like

  83. monsterball
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 12:04:14

    And on Lynas….Prof. Phua have asked Doc to view a blog.
    Who benefited most from the project?……Mahathir sons again….making billions.
    Like the crooked bridge…it will not materialized ..and so why is Ellese so dead set to promote the idea…non stop ….over dozens of long winded comments…knowing corruptions are involved….besides health hazards…WHY?
    Like Prof Phua said….she/he is here to talk nonsense and to upset everyone trying hard to talk intelligently.
    Yes…talk intelligently….FOR or AGAINST…….like at Lim Kit Siang’s blog…and even Rockybru’s blog…not forgetting Patrich Teoh’s.. “NIAMAH” blog.
    Prof Phua have hinted to Doc how great his blog is…..stopping short of how sad…if he does not take actions over pro .BN worms crawling in to put out shit stuffs in his blog.
    Less educated war-like man ….like me do not know how to be diplomatic.
    We see enemies…..we F them with no reservations too
    After all…..they are faceless and nameless….but youngsters read and learn..and that bothers me most.

    Like

  84. Dr Hsu
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 12:11:36

    Prof Phua
    Your comments are of high calibre and the websites you posted are always thought provoking and infomative.

    Suffice to say that You and I know who are who and what is what ; we need not response when they are arguing on empty points, not debating..

    Elections are near, you can be sure.
    Cheers.

    Like

  85. monsterball
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 12:30:10

    Ladies and Gentlemen…today I challenge my honorable opponent..Ellese…to debate the subject….”Why we must vote BN out in 13th GE”
    Since I proposed the subject….let my honorable opponent Ellese speak for BN.
    PS…Doc…how to debate when Ellese stick to one subject for weeks…..boring.
    We must DEBATE on affairs ,,,,involving the whole country……but I am glad you spoke out.
    I do hope you know there is no debate at any blog….all arguing too.
    But since Ellese is fond to debate…your blog will be the first.

    Like

  86. Dr Hsu
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 12:41:19

    The discussion on this is now close. I am busy thse couple of weeks, and will only post only when free or when there are issues cropping up..
    …………

    I notice that even KTK has come out and talked about the merits of a 2 party system.. SOme of the debates I have with him must have rubbed on him, and deep down inside his heart, where his conscience is, i believe that he knows that for the future benefits of his children, it would be better to have a 2 party system than a single dominant entity.

    If he as one of the top leaders of BN talks about the merits of 2 party system, then I think it should be clear whether we should allow BN to be so dominant like before, or whether it is better to let us be the boss and decide who should be at the helms.

    I dont know about the cybertroopers, but many of the top leaders and second line leaders of BN , in private have expressed that it would not be a bad thing to have a 2 party system in malaysia. It is not about antiBN, but to establish a system of 2 more or less equal sides, so that whichever side is no goodwill be thrown out and the other side be voted in to rule. But for such to happen, we need to establish a system first. To do that, we need BN to lose one term, and let the other side rule for once. If they are no good, then they be thrown out and a cleased BN can be invited back to rule again.

    But to have such things from happening, we must establish a system first, and a precedence. ( I will elaborate in this in the next post; even though i am very busy, i think it is of utmost importance to let people see clearly the path before them)

    Like

  87. monsterball
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 12:57:04

    Remember Doc…debating benefits ONLY UMNO/BN.
    You are right….election is near.
    Why waste time debating….to allow UMNO/BN to program young voters to keep their votes on hold…listen to debates….and yet Ellese chooses ONE subject all the time….making sure..young voters KIV their votes.
    That is her objective.
    Ellese is not interested to debate at all.
    She is out to talk nonsense all the time in your blog…..and just look at all the people she insulted….who disagree with her….provoking angers…then complaining to you.
    Even mild mannered and cultured Prof. Phua is not spared.
    It is NOT important that you and Prof …may understand.
    It is the readers and young voters….reading and be confused…which is the only hope for UMNO /BN to win more votes.
    Yes Prof Phua have said it all…with pockets of blanks for you to fill in and see the whole picture.

    Like

  88. klm
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 14:30:44

    What is the point of all these arguments. It means nothing. It is time to act, no talk. It is time to oppose all things BN whether good or bad. Today these are mostly bad.. Give them not an inch to move. I just do not see why all these talk.

    Like

  89. Ellese
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 18:12:20

    Dear doc,

    Please allow us to continue posting. There’s some new issues raised that I need to rebut. Hope you don’t mind us “killing our selves”. by the way would your blog policy allow me to respond in kind attack of personal and name calling nature.

    Like

  90. Ellese
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 18:37:53

    Dear phua,

    That’s the reason why we should not go on categorization. From your write you too find it’s unfair to categorize you by the people from government.

    Nevertheless I can accept your stand. If you feel it’s correct to categorize people without addressing the issue so be it. If you feel you will entertain academic discussion only with those using proper name so be it. I will remind myself of your peculiarities and stand. All I ask is be consistent.

    I believe it should not matter who wrote. The Internet has allowed us a democratic right to voice and air views irrespective of names used. And I still think it’s not useful to dismiss argument by categorization.

    Like

  91. Ellese
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 18:43:52

    Cilipadi

    You are dead wrong again. In all planning law in the world including those in developed countries there must establish nexus to claim. If I want to build something I can accept the right of my immediate Neighbour to complain. But not those staying 30 kilometers away. If I stay in pj, no residents in shah slam or Ampang should be given the right to object. No way HoSe. There are planning environmental and safety laws to comply with. So long ad I do no one staying 30 km away had a right to object.

    It’s another ridiculous argument by pro lynas propagandist.

    Like

  92. Ellese
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 18:52:36

    Monsterball

    You’re spewing rubbish. We have a focus topic here and you can only contribute by way of personal out of context attack. Debate this point first lah.

    And then choose a topic which I never claim to fight for. I’m arguing on lynas issue based on facts and reading. I’ve never claim or mention here of supporting bn. It’s phua who discolor me of being a bn propagandist to cover the fact that none of blind lynas propagandist here could provide contrarion facts.

    To me all politicians are the same. They can’t stick to values or principles save that our votes are their gods. Just look at the budget. Both bn and PR went for populist budget. But each claiming the other is worse though they do the same. Rubbish.

    So monsterball. Earn your reputation of not being an incoherent rambler by replying to my issue and question which I have asked countless times. Then we move to a different topic.

    Like

  93. Dr Hsu
    Oct 17, 2011 @ 19:19:34

    please, no personal attacks. and if there is no new points, pls do not argue for argument’s sake.

    Like

  94. Crush
    Oct 19, 2011 @ 15:13:17

    Why is everyone so sure Ellese is a woman? Just because of the nick he used?

    In my mind this Ellese is a UMNO cyber trooper. Why do I think that?

    Like

  95. monsterball
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 04:55:45

    Because you are smart.

    Like

  96. cilipadi
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 08:04:26

    Cybershitters fight with cybertroopers
    Wayng kulit only
    Can’t you guys see that?
    You want me to give a statistics?

    Main purpose is to ‘kaka caucau’ this forum

    Cybertroopers makan cili, cybershitters rasa pedas

    Like

  97. monsterball
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 09:09:03

    “Wayng kulit only.
    Can’t you guys see that?”
    All are blind….only one can see that.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Like

  98. streetfighter
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 09:30:14

    Cyberalien.Wa wa wa kakakakakaka

    Like

  99. monsterball
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 09:31:23

    And it must be a busybody Alien to see that.

    Like

  100. monsterball
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 09:42:49

    We have cybertropers….and one say cybershitters too.
    That one who says “cybershitters” is the real shiiter in this blog.
    Cannot blame him…he is an Alien farmer…planting cilipadi only and throwing cilipadi all over the blog.
    I have told him millions of Malaysians know how to plant ciliipadi too.
    He will not listen.
    He thinks he is the Chosen One…an Alien who cannot vote…dare not come back…and have plenty Malay friends…so he said.
    No other race friends? WHY??

    Like

  101. monsterball
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 09:50:32

    “Main purpose is to ‘kaka caucau” this forum”.
    He try to apply Mahathir’s art to blame others before others blame him.
    Look at the comments…before he came in.
    Who is kaka caucauing??

    Like

  102. streetfighter
    Oct 20, 2011 @ 10:01:16

    Big Dog,Najis,Ninja turtle and all Malay friends many many open house many many makan.

    Cili many many makan open house,many many shit shit shit.

    Like

  103. Ellese
    Oct 21, 2011 @ 10:35:07

    I’m not an UMNO cybertroopers. None in UMNO knows me and I don’t get anything. Please don’t make personal and unsubstantiated allegation. I too can meek baseless allegation. Just because you disagree with my view you should not categorize people like phua. Please don’t start. Just attack my views.

    Like

  104. Ahboy
    Feb 26, 2012 @ 05:48:57

    Ellese, can i meet you? I never meet such a stubborn human. Let me know if you willing, thx.

    Like

  105. Hope
    May 21, 2012 @ 02:40:04

    I do not site any political parties neither do i discriminate my other ethnic friends.
    I do not care about the whatever report that shows no radioactive effect. What i care the most is my people and my country, and the feeling of solidarity as ” We” Malaysians.
    My concern is more on the local people’s voices there. There should be a consent and an agreement from the locals prior the refinery factory is built there NOT FYI= for your information and assume locals to accept it overtime. So questions, were there meetings or any active participation among the local prior implementation? Were their voices heard and taken into account? Were there any transparency? I believe,failure to do so, is a violation of Human Rights and hence, it causes all these Stop Lynas manifestation and chaos to our country. It ridiculous to see how reckless policy makers implement projects without involving the locals.

    Like

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