Convert someone only when he truly believes

Last minute conversion while a patient is dying is not an uncommon phenomenon.

Ask anyone who has worked in a hospital before, they will tell you this. Sometimes when a person is very ill, there will be certain religious workers (not from the dying man’s faith) coming to visit him , comforting him and perhaps even praying for him . Sometimes the dying person is asked to pray together with them. Often this is done when the dying man’s relatives are not around.

SO when the person dies, a dispute can sometimes occur. Those workers will come forward and claim that the dead man has embraced their faith at the last minute, and very often it is their words against the relatives words.

When a person is very ill, he might not be in the right frame of mind to decide whether he should stick to the faith that he has believed all his life, or changed to the faith that those preachers are preaching. Very often he would allow these people to pray for him out of courtesy , out of apprehension of death or,  simply,  he is so ill he does not know what is really going on around him.

 It is really inconceivable to think that a person will abandon something that he has believed all his life all of a sudden and embraced the new religion. It is also inconceivable that he can understand and believe in something within such a short time.

When there is a dispute arising out of this, the people that suffer most will be the spouse and the family. Just look at the photograph of Gan’s widow that I posted yesterday. All religions profess compassion. No religion would want to cause  such great sufferings and sadness to the family . It is only the action of the overzealous followers of religions, who may just follow the form but not the true spirits of their religious teachings, that is causing so much of sufferings and bitterness.  God would not condone this.  God would not want a family to be separated, either in life or in death.

A reader who is also a fellow blogger under the name of “A True Malaysian” said it all.

I feel miserable with this kind of thing happening. When a husband passed away, irrespective of what his religion or belief, his body should rightfully goes to the custody of his wife / family. This is only fair.

What kind of funeral rite to be performed over the body should be decided by his wife / family, definitely not by third party.

By all means pray for the dying person. By all means do all the good deeds to help him. But if ever he wishes to be converted in his death bed, please let the family know in advance.

It would be better to try to convert someone when they are healthy and kicking, so that they are in the right frame of mind to decide whether there is anything in the new faith for them to abandon their old faith and convert.

 To convert someone just for the sake of converting or for the sake of statistics is not what God wishes. If you wish to convert someone, you must make sure that he really understands and fully believes in the teachings of that particular faith. Otherwise, you may keep his body there, but his heart will be somewhere else. This is not what religion is about.

The world will be a much better place if only we remember a simple teaching from Confucius: Do not do onto others what you do not want others to do onto you.

42 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. A true Malaysian
    Jan 30, 2008 @ 13:18:25

    Religion conversion is a very delicate matter to all of us. To me, religion is only a ‘label’ that each of us stick to ourselves, which I think is not important.

    The more important to me is, is our faith on what we beliefs. There are many cases of conversion to other religion without their parents or closed one’s knowledge, which in my opinion, are bad. Those who want to convert, should at the very least, consult their next of kin, this is only fair to your spouse or parents. The conversion process should not be so mechanized like signing legal documents as what one’s believes is an ‘intangible’ thing. One may regard himself / herself a Muslim (for whatever reason known to him / her), but what in his / her mind, is a Christian, Buddhist or whatever.

    In short, rituals to me is not important at all.

    There are many missionaries that go all out to convert people, which I think, is not good. Sometime these people are overzealous until the original mission of propagating their religions are forgotten. Their aims should be helping mankind and spread good values, instead of converting as many people as possible. Due to this, I would prefer to us ‘adoption’ rather than ‘conversion’.

    Whatever religion I maybe, I still believe in KARMA, we cannot escape from this law of natue.

    Like

  2. ktemoc
    Jan 30, 2008 @ 19:27:31

    Well written Darren as usual. As I had blogged in http://ktemoc.blogspot.com/2008/01/fighting-for-corpse-or-soul.html

    If I may I would like to send condolence to the Gan family, and remind them that as Buddhists, they should take comfort in the words of the late Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera who said:

    … Buddhists do not believe that one day someone will come and awaken the departed persons spirits from their graveyards or the ashes from their urns and decide who should go to heaven and who should go to hell.

    The consciousness or mental energy of the departed person has no connection with the body left behind or his skeleton or his ashes. Many people believe that if the deceased is not given a proper burial or if a sanctified tombstone is not placed on the grave, then the soul of the deceased will wander to the four corners of the world and weep and wail and sometimes even return to disturb the relatives. Such a belief cannot be found anywhere in Buddhism.

    Buddhists believe that when a person dies, rebirth will take place somewhere else according to his good or bad actions. As long as the person possesses the craving for existence, he must experience rebirth. Only the Arahants, who have gone beyond all passions will have no more rebirths and so after their death, they will attain their final goal Nibbana.

    Saatu

    Like

  3. monsterball
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 00:33:17

    This so call fighting over conversions…between brothers and sisters about their old age senile parents..between a busy Buddhist husband …returning home ….all of a sudden realize wife is a Christian…..and later left him ……..for a Christan man….bla bla bla.
    That is why….I felt nothing over youir most noble plea to the government to be more compassionate and understanding.
    As long as religion is part of the major advantage for UMNO and Pas in politics….our most hypocritical way of life for many will never change….unless …the Constitution clearly says….. religions are free and easy.
    Until that day arrives…there is no freedom of anyone who is an Islam and want to leave for another….and never ….almost impossible.. for any Malay to leave Islam out of their own free will…NO….it seems a certain almighty… has somewhat told all Muslims…you are mine and mine only….through UMNO and PAS.

    Like

  4. Jeff
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 01:19:17

    “God would not condone this. God would not want a family to be separated, either in life or in death.”Doc.that is true when a religion is worshiping a loving GOD. In reality, it is not the case.Certain religion believe in destroying other religions to remain dominant and supreme.
    they are the followers of any things except GOD.

    true Malaysian: it has nothing to do with conversion , it is a blantant forgery by the party concern with the help of those hateful mullah from religious affair department intentionally violate the right of non-muslim Malaysian judging from precedent cases ,i am sure you understand the teaching of this majority faith toward others religions if you are really a citizen of Malaysia.

    Like

  5. monsterball
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 07:32:01

    At the end of the day…It is not the skin…nor the label that matters.
    It is the way of life you conduct yourself and ….practicing to be a noble human being…with the aim… to live … a noble life.
    And to start identifying that person…is to look beyond everything…study his/her speeches…the way he/she conduct him/herself….and see if one can judge his/her when she/he speaks..whether from the heart or from the brain to the mouth.
    Then….if it is from the heart speaking all good…if ever word uttered are from the heart at all….and not trained to speak …as if from the heart…which few cunning politicians have master the art to con others.
    But no matter how much one cunning politician ias trained to speak insincerely…one who have spoken from the heart…all good …like Doc…can easily identify ….the good…bad and ugly human beings. No one can fool a good hearted person.
    That’s the reward we must all try to achieve…more than success in making money….as long as enough money to survive…..that’s also the way of life……we have to accept ….as the end of it all….due to many who struggled …also depend on the whole family …especially the children…for their supports and love……thus money matters will be taken cared of by so many instead of one.’The burden of sufferings and sacrifices have been well rewarded……and that’s why the good Khammars accumulated are all coming out to protect that noble person…from evil and bad things.
    “Knock at it shall be opened. Seek and you shall find. Ask…and it shall be given to you”
    These are beautiful words spoken by Jesus….and regardless whichever religion one belongs to…….pray for all these..pratcise them..and then one can say…you are seeking the real truths….and wanting to be a noble human being.
    Then one can really see the ..read and understand……all the bullshits being spoken …written….performed by the present government.

    Like

  6. Wisdom above
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 08:36:47

    These steps must be legally enforced as follows :-

    1) By Law, make it mandatory for converts to make a ‘ statutory declaration that ‘ he had converted to Islam. ‘

    2) By Law, the above ‘statutory declaration’ must be published in all the National newspapers ,Chinese, Indian ,English & Bahasa Malaysia newspapers .

    3) By Law, failure or non publication of the above will render the conversion null and void.

    4) Surely, the above ‘ converts ‘ should be proud to announce that He or She has become a ‘ Muslim ‘.
    Why ‘hide in silence’ if Allah, the Lord God has Blessed you & shown you the ‘right path’ ?
    The ‘converts’ should ‘share’ his or her “joys ” with his or her own non-muslims family members.

    All 3 steps above should legally put to rest the confusions that have arose for years.

    Just imagine the ” paradox ” someone ‘converted you without your knowledge’ right now , while you are alive & still reading ” Convert someone only when he truly believes ” at this very minute ,right now.

    ‘……….. Leave the Dead to bury their own Dead. ‘

    Remember, all events happened yesterday and today were all illogical.

    ‘ Malaysian Love Malaysian ‘

    …..

    Like

  7. maddie
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 08:38:27

    The whole problem is that people have been taught wrongly about their religion. These people who tried to convert others before they die believe that by doing so, they are saving the dying from going to hell. They believe so strongly in this wrong teaching that they will go all out to “save others” and of course they also believe that by doing so, they will also get “merits”/”rewards”/”pahala” from God. Some. of course, will take the opportunity to abuse this for their own self interest.

    God and religion are very abstract things which cannot be proven. There should not even be such a thing as an official religion. It is just a belief and should be left at that for whoever wants to believe in it. The world will be a much peaceful place if we do not mix religion and politicis. All we need to have a peaceful society is when laws are enforced strictly, fairly and properly.

    Like

  8. whitelight59
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 08:45:31

    All religious conversions should be banned in malaysia.

    Since all religions are “recognised” by the Constitution, they must all be allowed to establish religious courts akin to Syariah Court – why should just islam have a court in malaysia ?

    Like

  9. gedebenavy
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 10:11:57

    Religious conversion is not new and only confined to Islam. The overzealous Christians has been doing that for many years now. They just don’t seem to care about the feelings of others but just to save their own skin i.e to gain ‘pahla’ or score points with their god. I’m truely sad this is all happenings especially amongst the Chinese and the perpetrators are the Chinese Christians! Even in the schools, the Christians are busy converting the students using tactics that are not ethical. The Christians are using clubs with name like Strawberry club, Boy brigade as a front for Christian missionary works. I only hope the govn to be sensitive to this and put a stop to all unethical methods to convert the people.

    Like

  10. Rodibidably
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 11:50:39

    I would like to invite you to post your reply to an open question to all believers, on my blog:
    http://potomac9499.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/an-open-question-to-all-believers/

    I am asking in all sincerity, because I do actually want to understand differing view points, and since you seem quite certain of your faith, I feel your input would be relevant.

    Like

  11. monsterball
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 15:26:16

    Rodibidably…..first you identify your self….what is your religion…..and what is your real purpose…to debate on one true God or whatever.or to find out which is which.
    Please also confirm you have studied comparative religions….and give me some proof of it.
    I guarantee the blog owner Dr. Hsu will not stoop so low to response to your invitation. Why should he?
    He put out a message sincerely …as according to his beliefs and feelings..for us to debate for or against….not for us to expose him…this or that.
    He has been very open minded and democratic …to his visitors.
    But me….as a commentator…. will take up your challenge….but first I am trying to find out….are you a worthy opponent.
    No one will believe you are inviting all of us to your blog for differences in opinions ..so that you will learn. It’s more like advertising your blog……get more visitors to talk in your blog…more than anything else.
    And if you want to debate….do it here.
    I wait your reply.

    Like

  12. Sufya
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 15:30:21

    every body should be free to which ever religion he wants to belong no problem with that
    as regards to religious conversion at the time of death according to muslim view, persons realtives can do it if their relative is not a muslim even if he is a muslim we remind him at the time of death that

    LA ILAHA ILALLAH
    there is no god worthy to be worshiped but ALLAH.

    thanks
    Sufyan

    Like

  13. A true Malaysian
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 17:31:06

    Rodibidably,

    For the benefit of other readers of this forum, I wish to share my thoughts to an open question of yours that I commented in your blog. To me, such discussions are beneficial to all of us which could enhance our understandings on each other’s beliefs.
    _________________________________________
    I am neither ‘for’ nor ‘against’ any religion. I consider myself a Buddhist and I am open to the views of other religions, especially on the topic of God.

    For Christian and Islam, believe in God / Allah is the foundation for their beliefs. That is to say, if there is no God / Allah, there will be no Christian and Islam. So, if I express my view that ‘God doesn’t exist’ and ‘whether there exist a God / Allah is not important’ then they will refer me to the Bible and Koran to prove to me that God is actual fact, exist.

    It is fine for me that Christian & Islam believes in God / Allah and their belief in those written in Bible & Koran. I am not even disputing whether is there any truth in what written in the holy books.

    So, my point is that, it is our universal rights to have faith in whatever beliefs or religions. It is also our rights to preach to each other on what we believe to others in good faith, and not with the intention of ‘converting’ he / she into whatever that we believe at. Whether he / she chooses to convert is his / hers rights.

    I have high regards to those works of Christian missionaries that helping out the unfortunates. In fact, such noble works should be encouraged and emulate by others, as these are for the good of mankind. For me, such actions are in fact, good for the respective Karma that what Buddhist believe.

    Important point here is that, have faith on what you believe at. It does not matter, ultimately, he / she decides to convert(after you preach), so long as you have faith on what you believe.

    But, I still believe that Law of Karma is applicable to you and me, no matter what are yours religions.

    Like

  14. Rodibidably
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 20:24:03

    monster,

    Identify myself, ok that is easy enough.
    I concider myself to be an atheist, however I enjoy studying different religions. I am very interested in the similarities and differences between different faiths.
    I’m not sure how you would want me to give you proof that I have studied multiple religions. Online I could claim that I had a vision of jesus tell me to go out and commit some act or say something. That does not mean it is true. I was raised in a somewhat religious atmosphere but came to believe long ago that I could not reconcile the faiths that I knew of at the time with morality and scientific discoveries. The further I delved into studying I saw more and more, that the religions I was exposed to were essentially “god of the gaps” philosophies.

    I’m not sure why you believe that it would be “stooping so low” for somebody to reply to a simple question, but if that it your opinion, so be it. The primary reason I choose to have the discussion on one blog instead of multiple blogs, is so that those who are participating in the discussion can see all the responses, and hopefully come to better understand multiple view points on the same issue.

    I find it quite funny that you are trying to determine if I am a “worthy opponent”. You take a very adversarial position from the beginning, when I am inviting people to share their differences openly. I am of the opinion that people can differ in their views openly and honestly without it causing conflict. From your response it seems that you do not share this belief.

    Like

  15. hsudarren
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 21:02:11

    monsterball, I will not answer that question because no one has the answer. That is the simple truth.

    I thank you for your brave stand and comment.
    🙂
    But I went tothe link , I think his (Rodibidably’s) intention is sincere in wanting a debate on this question.

    Like

  16. monsterball
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 21:29:57

    Yes Doc…noted and understood.

    Like

  17. monsterball
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 22:01:35

    Rodibidably….Firstly my nick is monsterball….not monster.
    My advise to you is choose a religion and have full faith in it.
    Put all your heart and soul with passion to that one religion you choose…….as the world is full of spirits….good and evil ones…..and one need to have a strong mind to avoid taken over by the ‘naughty’ spirit.
    Whether you are are weak or strong human being….believing strongly to one religion does strengthen your mind and soul…..but not to the extend to be a fanatic…and believe other humans are stupid fools to believe in other faiths. Those who talk and behave like that..are infact the lost souls…or feeling so guilty in life…afraid to go to hell when they die….as they are programmed to be that way.
    Read what “A True Malaysian” wrote and understand.
    You have a confused and weak mind.
    On the matter of debate on religion..you are not ready yet…..period!
    And try to respect others …as you want others to respect you…starting by calling me monsterball….and not show your childish character from the first word…….insulting me.

    Like

  18. Rodibidably
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 22:26:36

    hsuddarren,

    Nobody has the answer to WHY they believe in their given religion? Really, that sounds liek you are saying faith is like a blind man throwing darts, whichever one you hit is as good as any other one…

    You are correct that I want a sincere debate, and I felt that you, or some of your readers might be able to give a unique perspective. I do appreciate your taking the time to read my post. I hope you will reconsider and share your thoughts, but I respect your decision decline.

    —–

    true Malaysian,

    I will respond to your post shortly on the original blog post. I do want to thank you for your input, especially since it seems to be yet another way of looking at things, and I am interested in learning more about different perspectives.

    —–

    monsterball,

    Sorry about shortening your nic. I tend to do that at times, and did not mean to offend.

    You advise me to “choose a religion and have full faith in it”. This would assume that all religions are equal. Since there are many instances where various religions come in conflict with each other over very basic teachings I fail to see how randomly picking one can be of any value. If all religions are equally valid, then no religion would also be equally valid, so why should somebody “choose a religion”. I tend to not believe in things which can not be verified (santa claus, easter bunny, bigfoot, vampires, alien visitation, etc), and yet you seem to be saying that I should blindly accept a religion, any religion as “truth” despite the possibility that whatever I choose has a very real chance of doing more harm than good (branch davidians, manson family, jim jones’ group, etc).

    I fail to see how I did not show you respect or insulted you in my post. I suppose that some can see a light when none was ever there.

    Like

  19. VJ
    Jan 31, 2008 @ 23:09:10

    conversion is common but body snatching is somewhat a disgusting act .
    To me , the wife has stronger rights over the deceased than religious and it’s department .
    Indians normally say “any religious is acceptable” , this kind of mentality worth millions especially in multi-racial society .
    Anyway , it’s a hard lesson to all of us . With such awakening , we’re in the midst of strengthening our religious fundamentals where we wanted to instill ‘say no to conversion’ kind of believes among children , youngsters ….etc .

    Nobody knows which God actually will receive the deceased up there but here people are fighting for corpse ! Next time you see a ‘corpse snatcher’ tell him that ‘dont test people’s patience’ .

    Like

  20. anonymous dud
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 00:54:30

    remind my grandfather wake that a pastor preach if you believe in jesus you go to heaven, and tak rugi if heaven not exist…. damn disrespect making such a speech.

    Like

  21. jeff
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 03:06:27

    A country that is governed by religion rules will not stand the test of time, religion is a belief system, not a universal value for governance. When our government take side on religion issue, and allow sharia to decide the faith of non-muslim Malaysians, we are moving backward in nation building.

    Like

  22. monsterball
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 05:24:17

    No one who understands religions…will identify himself/herself…. an atheist….a word coined by the US government…to identify how god fearing their are…..which we know is not true also. just because others believe in many gods and not one god are wrong.
    And you have infact hinted you like ‘the way of life” doctrines…thus either Hindhusim or Buddhism should suits you fine. They are free and easy ..teaches you to do good and not do bad and control your monkey mind….that easy.
    So choose one….THEN…make sure you study and read the good books on that religion….and depend only on people to give you explainations on what you know understand .
    On Hindhusim…..’Bhagavad-Gita As It Is”….is the book to give you best foundation.
    And on Buddhism…get to know how Sihatta Guatama…Sakya prince… became the Buddha and then read “The Words of Buddha” or sayings of the Buddha…not easy to understand…get a reputable knowledgable monk to teach and explain to you..but books written by the late Chief Reverend of Malaysia….Dr.Dhammananda is the best for you to understand ….as he writes well and easy to understand.
    But should you change your mind..and even want to seek the truths trough the Bahai Faith…Islam..or Christianity……then seek it with full interest.
    And when you have found the religion to give medicine to your “monkey” mind…don’t shout to the whole world…how great your religion is….when you have not study comparative religions….for if you do….then you will never brag about how great your religion or faith is. Any god never ask anyone to advertise for him/her. It is the cunning humans doing that for selfish reasons to control people..for profitable business..and those shouting are the weak deciples……ALWAYS!!
    You are what we call….the lost sheep in the Bible.
    But first….you need to have manners…..as the way you write…shows an intelligent young man…with a troubled mind.
    See how much I care for you?

    Like

  23. drunkmarco
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 07:09:21

    A person has the right to make his choice in religion all the way through life for someone to come and pray for you while dying and then say they converted you i think is pretty wrong.

    If they really felt the need to pray for you they could do it at the end of the ward not at the persons death bed which to be honest i think they have no right to be unless asked.

    Ive had my choice taken to church as a boy and i don’t believe in gods so as i grew up i stopped going and made my choice. I want friends and loved ones with me when i die not a cheap door to door who has taken his religion way to seriously.

    Like

  24. monsterball
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 09:35:27

    Rodibidably…The way you write….you are insulting all humans believing in a faith or a religions. They are all bloody fools and you are the smartest.
    I recall you putting out the same old shit long long ago.
    Yes…..some highly intelligent and very wise well educated and knowledgable humans …do not believe in any religion at all…..especially the scientists and few special strong minded people. They depended on truths …..from their sixth sense and commonsense.
    But you don’t fit in this group at all….although you tend to project you are one of them.
    This will be my last message to you.
    Get real!!!

    Like

  25. Rodibidably
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 10:48:56

    monsterball,

    How can you claim that nobody who understands religion will identify themselves as an atheist? And why is that, because you personally can not understand how somebody could deny the existence of god? Can you deny the existence of bigfoot, or ghosts or vampires or alien abductions? How is denying any of those different than dening another form of the supernatural, “god”?

    You also claim that the word atheist was coined by the US govement? Really, that is interesting…
    “In early Ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (ἄθεος, from the privative ἀ- + θεός “god”) meant “godless”. The word began to indicate more-intentional, active godlessness in the 5th century BCE, acquiring definitions of “severing relations with the gods” or “denying the gods, ungodly” instead of the earlier meaning of ἀσεβής (asebēs) or “impious”. Modern translations of classical texts sometimes render atheos as “atheistic”. As an abstract noun, there was also ἀθεότης (atheotēs), “atheism”. Cicero transliterated the Greek word into the Latin atheos. The term found frequent use in the debate between early Christians and Hellenists, with each side attributing it, in the pejorative sense, to the other.[8]
    In English, the term atheism was derived from the French athéisme in about 1587.[10] The term atheist (from Fr. athée), in the sense of “one who denies or disbelieves the existence of God”,[11] predates atheism in English, being first attested in about 1571.[12]”

    You MAY want to actually do some research before you make claims like that in the future. Not to offend, but when you make claims that are so obviously historically wrong it makes many of the other things you say seem less authoritative.

    I have studied christianity (catholicism, and presbyterianism), judaism, islam, buddhism, and VERY briefly some of the tenants of hinduism. While I found I agree with some aspects of all of these faiths, I found that I could not personally accept the claims of the supernatural that come along with religion.

    Your assumption that somebody must “choose a religion” seems odd to me. If you truly believe that your version of “god” is correct, then telling somebody to worship a “different” god would seem sacrilegious. If you believe that any “god” is as valid as any other “god”, then you should be willing to acknowledge that no god is also just as valid. Yet you seem to insist that one MUST believe in some “god”, even if it is the “wrong” one.

    Again you accuse me of being rude and not having manners, but I fail to see what I have said that is so offense to you. Is having your beliefs questioned out of curiosity offensive to you? If so, you may want to look at your own convictions, and ot at those asking the questions.

    Like

  26. Rodibidably
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 10:54:37

    monsterball,

    Please tell me how exactly I have offended you. I have asked you some very basic questions, and tried to correct you when you have made false statements about me and my beliefs, and almost everything you have said has been false about me or my beliefs.

    I am trying to understand WHY you believe that people “need” to have a “god” in their life, and you keep saying over and over that there is no such thing as an atheist who has studied religion. This is an obviously false statement as there have been many scholarly books on the subject of faith and religion by noted atheists (Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and of course Richard Dawkins).

    For a “christian” you seem to resort ot name calling and insults rather quickly in what I had hoped would be an open friendly discussion on faith and beliefs. I am sorry that you were not able to add anything substantive to the debate.

    Like

  27. hsudarren
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 11:39:27

    Monsterball and Rodibidably, We can agree to disagree but don’t let emotion get the better of us.

    I treasure the views of both of you and i hope we will just put our views across in a debate without any personal insinuation.

    Let’s us all be good friends in the blogosphere and let bygones be bygones.

    Cheers, friends! Let’s yam seng with mineral water. Cheers!

    Like

  28. Rodibidably
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 12:01:35

    hsudarren,

    I have done my best to avoid disparaging others, so far all of the “emotion” has come from others who insist on making false statements, false assumptions about me, and insults.

    I would welcome a good debate, but seemingly you are unwilling, and monsterball is unable.

    Like

  29. monsterball
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 12:25:54

    With due respect to Dr.Shu….I will not respond. I said that was my last message to him….but his replies are hungry for me to battle him.
    Lets say….he is 100% right….to please and end this and let everyone judge for themselves.
    In that sense….as I have said before….it is in this blog..I learn to be more tolerant and understanding by just reading Doc’s few words …that have so much meanings.
    Yes..Doc…few days from now…we call call our friends of all race to join us in our Chinese New Year moods for merriment ..togetherness ….lets drink together……be happy and well.
    And may I take this opportunity to wish you and your family a Happy & Prosperous 2008!!
    And to all the Chinese visitors….. may I also wish one and all…a “HAPPY & PROSPEROUS CHINESE NEW YEAR”!!

    Like

  30. humbleforest
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 17:13:32

    In today’s society conversion to any religion whether it is right or wrong just leave it to the one who believes in it.
    One who has faith and truly understand the essence of the right teachings and able to put into practice without segregation, differences, discrimination and causing any harm and confusion to others then it is the right Moral way of one’s cultivation.
    Only when there is right thought, right speech and
    right action will there be be true inner peace.
    Welcome all circumstances with equanimity.
    All religions teach the essence of the Moral path.
    Morality is to submit one’s gratitude and respect
    to our Supreme Creator, Parents, Guardians and
    Elders.
    Morality is to be loyal to one’s country and family.
    Morality is to have mutual love of helping one another as brothers and sisters without any gain.
    Morality is to differentiate what is shame and
    shameless.
    Morality is to be honest and have full responsibility on one’s profession and family.
    Morality is to tolerate, endure, polite and respect
    everyone in whatever status or position. Do not
    despise anyone.
    Morality is to have indiscriminate love, concern
    and empathy for others. Please do not cause any
    disturbance or hatred for others.
    Morality does not blame or have any grudges.
    Morality sacrifices oneself for the good cause of
    all.
    Morality is to upgrade one’s good conduct and
    personility in one’s daily chores.
    Morality is to walk the path of moderation and fairness with an unbias heart.

    One must not hide behind Morality to claim that
    one is a moral person. If one does not know
    what Morality is then one must not preach it.
    Same as a religious person, if he does not truly
    practise moral values and put them into right action, then he is not a real religious man.

    Like

  31. humbleforest
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 17:38:01

    Faith should not be a belief for the sake of believing.
    Faith should be borne from understanding, personel experience and culminating progressively to unshakeable faith.
    Faith however must not be blind.
    Wisdom and experience can only go beyond to
    experience the Supreme Lord if one’s heart and mind are truly pure. As today’s science proves that our human mind of potiential capacity is only
    five percent developed. In spiritual sense, our
    true-self is covered by our past and present sins.
    That is why our human knowledge of comprehesion in spiritual science is very, very limited. So in this sense, a leap of faith and moral
    cultivation is important.
    This LEAP must be guided with a heart that is filled
    with loving-kindness and true empathy for others.
    A Leap of Faith or an iron-faith without true love and compassion for others often leads to delusions and destructions.
    Faith need not be rushed; let it grow naturally
    and lovingly at one’s own pace. The Supreme
    Lord waits for each and every soul. HE loves all, and denies no one, but is denied by many.

    Like

  32. monsterball
    Feb 01, 2008 @ 17:48:44

    Unwilling is wise.
    Unable is a man who knows next to nothing?…..hahahahahahaha

    Like

  33. jeff
    Feb 02, 2008 @ 10:29:59

    Yam seng with mineral water, doc, you can do better than that! replace mineral water with champaign or whiskey will be a lot better, so everyone can get drunk n stop quarrellings here…..cheer!!!!! Happy chinese new year-year of the rat

    Like

  34. monsterball
    Feb 03, 2008 @ 17:59:46

    yes Jeff…Doc’s yam seng with mineral water by a Malaysian Chinese is unheard of.
    Even if he is trying not to offend the Muslims…he should say ..”lets yam seng” and let everyone choose.
    Don’t tell me …if he have a party comprising of all races.and Lingam is there…he will not have whiskey and wine available?…..hahahahahahaha
    And to b e frank…I have seen Muslims drink brandy or whiskey …like a fish…and they are such great noble human beings.
    Finally..Doc said he love wine.
    Therefore…Doc is bullshitting
    ……hahahahahahaha
    Will he approve this message….the wise one…..from an idiot?……hahahahaha

    Like

  35. hsudarren
    Feb 04, 2008 @ 09:47:34

    Hey, Monsterball, I asked to yam seng with mineral water to cool you and rodibidably. If we yam seng with wines, you 2 might get into a virtual fight and may have to end up in a virtual hospital, hahaha….
    Alcohol fans angry emotions, and so when 2 are arguing with persoanl insinuation, it is best to drink mineral water.

    Any way , thanks for the jokes! 🙂

    Like

  36. jeff
    Feb 07, 2008 @ 00:39:28

    monsterball; alcohol raise the mood , it stimulate our energy for further debate, so long as everyone has no more than 2 glasses, i will think muslim will not get offended by that, but if they do, that is nothing we can do to stop their anger, since they get angry all the time with little bit of disagreement, so let it be.
    Malaysia has all these problems between its brothers and sisters since the uncivilized middle easterners with their religions first landed in our belove country, trying to stir up our unity so Malaysia can turn into a fanatic stste.

    Like

  37. jeff
    Feb 07, 2008 @ 00:41:04

    monsterball; alcohol raise the mood , it stimulate our energy for further debate, so long as everyone has no more than 2 glasses, i will think muslim will not get offended by that, but if they do, that is nothing we can do to stop their anger, since they get angry all the time with little bit of disagreement, so let it be.
    Malaysia has all these problems between its children since the uncivilized middle easterners with their religions first landed in our belove country, trying to stir up our unity so Malaysia can turn into a fanatic state.

    Like

  38. jeff
    Feb 08, 2008 @ 11:33:29

    monsterball, doc. afraid of offending muslims if he mention alcohol, which will empower their arrogance n disregard toward Malaysians right in our own country.

    Like

  39. humbleforest
    Feb 11, 2008 @ 03:01:12

    Whether one believes in GOD or not is not
    important. The important point is , ” one is judged not by what one believes, but by what one has
    done. The standard of judgement is the same for
    all living under the sun.
    You are what you are by your practices. It is the same for all who believe or do not believe.
    Your conscience and your deeds are your witness.
    The Natural Law of Retribution judges all in fairness. No one will be able to evade this Universal Law.
    Retribution is the proof of reincarnation.
    Reincarnation is the proof of retribution.
    Do not wait until it is too late to believe it.
    Good or bad deeds is your life’s end proof.
    They are recorded in the lines of your both
    palms, as proof. This is just a small part of the
    spiritual proof.

    Like

  40. humbleforest
    Feb 11, 2008 @ 17:54:04

    1st type of Atheist…

    is one who uses the word blindly or follow blindly, just as to protect or make an excuse of oneself
    for personal gain , egoism , fame , power , greed
    and glamour. It shows that one does not fully understand about nature and spiritual knowledge because one’s potential capacity of one’s mind is
    five percent only developed. So the human
    mind of spiritual knowledge of comprehension
    of God or demi-gods, or even fairies is very, very,
    very limited. This is due to one’s pure-self which is covered with the past and present sins.
    This type of atheist may be a hindrance to society
    and may mislead or cause confusion to the innocent ones.

    2nd type of Atheist…

    knows how to behave positively without going against the law but have self-esteemed and is strongly attached to worldly material things.
    He may be of curiousity and chasing after illusive
    proofs. But he does things fairly and moderately.
    His emotions are not stable. As stated from a
    proverb, ” curiousity kills a cat “.
    This type of atheist is arrogrant and at times he may isolate from others who are better than him.
    Moderately he does his own way.

    3rd type of Atheist…

    knows how to cultivate one’s inner and outer-self
    morally and practise calmness meditation. These two methods are of paramount importance to oneself because they help to liberate one’s
    pure-self. One has no strong desires for these
    materialistic things. One may isolate from others,
    but does not hate, disturb or cause any harm to others. One may be in harmony to society and
    at times volunteer to help the society. No doubt
    that one does not believe in the existence of GOD,
    fairies and devils but one does respect them just
    like to human beings irrespective of races as well as to nature. One does not pollute and contaminate the land, sea and space. One is in line with moral values and nature.
    This type of atheist is better than those religious
    persons whose heart is empty of love for others
    and always claim one’s religion is the most correct
    and supreme.

    Whether one is an atheist or religious, or a
    non-religious, The Supreme Almighty still loves all.
    HE does not discriminate any but is discriminated
    by many. Whether one believes in HIM or not, HE
    still delivers many things for humans , animals.
    sea-creatures and plants to survive through many millions years until today. Only the ignorant and
    deluded humans are destroying what HE has given.

    Like

  41. Rodibidably
    Feb 15, 2008 @ 05:09:43

    humbleforest,

    If you replace the word “atheist” with “believer” or “person” your last post is equally on target and valid.

    Every group of people has those who try to hide behind it as a coat to disguise their true intentions and selfish motives (type #1).

    Every group of people has those who are bitter and jaded and uses their group only as a way to “hide” from those they disagree with (type #2).

    And every group of people has those who are trying to better themselves, better others in their group, and better the world at large (type #3).

    To say that these 3 “groups” are specific to atheists is like saying atheists can be broken down into those who are left handed and those who are right haded, or breaking them down by color of their hair, etc. Every large enough group of people has good, bad and indifferent.

    Like

  42. humbleforest
    Feb 17, 2008 @ 12:58:23

    Mr. Rodibidably

    Thank you for your helpful comment.

    Humbleforest has little knowledge to share,
    but is willing to learn from everyone, irrespective
    of learned or unlearned.

    Knowledge is limitless as well as spiritual
    knowledge.
    Spiritual knowlege is beyond human
    being’s knowledge of understanding. Only one
    whose heart is purely moral cultivated is able
    to comprehend.

    Humbleforest is watching one’s faults and wrongdoings every now and then as to improve
    oneself. Anyone is welcome to comment on
    humbleforest’s mistakes.
    Thank you to all, as well as Dr. Hsu DaRRen for
    having opening his forum blog for everyone to share and voice out their comments and opinions.

    May the Supreme Lord bless the World in
    true Peace and Harmony.

    Like

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