The RCI has made the conclusion that TBH committed suicide as a result of aggressive and prolonged questioning by MACC officers.
No one except the person/persons responsible for his death would know what had actually transpired before and at the time of his death.
However, logic would tell us that a person who was just a witness and who was supposed to get married the next day, and who was going to be a father soon, would not take his own life easily.
He was either pushed out of the window or he jumped himself.. The former would make his death a murder, and the latter would be suicide.
RCI ruled that he committed suicide under duress from MACC officers. If this is the case, then a few questions came to my mind.
1. Did not the MACC know that he was just a witness?
2. If so, why was the tactic of aggressive and prolonged questioning used on TBH?
3. From 1 and 2, we can deduce that the MACC officers involved had certain ‘intention’ to make TBH turn against his boss. The intention could be due to either of the following:
a. the officers genuinely believed that TBH’s boss was guilty of corruption; or
b. they know that THB’s Boss is not guilty but they still want to make a case out of it to please ‘someone’.
4. deducing from RCI’s conclusion, this ‘intention’ to break TBH might have made Teoh to feel so miserable (under such inhuman duress, anything could be possible) that he jumped and killed himself to escape from duress. … That is what the RCI is saying.
Perhaps, the officers involved knew that under such duress, a witness could commit suicide. If they knew this and still went ahead with the ‘aggressive and prolonged’ questioning, then this becomes a clear case of homicide, even if TBH had jumped himself . This is not unlike a situation where a robber with a knife is forcing a victim to jump from a cliff. Yes, the victim jumps himself, but he has no other choice when faced with someone pointing a knife at him.. In TBH’s case, the duress he was placed under is equivalent to a knife.
The intention to break him knowing full well that such methods would cause death would be homicide.
I am not a lawyer but i am only using common sense and talking from the moral angle using RCI’s conclusion..
The officers responsible must be charged for this is a heinous crime. A heinous crime that arises from the abuse of power in an agency that is supposed to be the protector of the system..
Even the highers-up such as the director and so on must take responsibility and resign, as a show of accountability.
Otherwise, who will ever feel safe to become a witness, if to be a witness means hours of inhuman treatment? Who would want to be in a situation where a ‘knife’ is figuratively pointing at you?
If this can happen to witnesses, I really pity those who are accused of crimes…
Malaysia must stop all these madness,abuses and rots in the system…
(The argument here is based solely on the conclusions made by the RCI, and this does not mean that the author agrees with the findings of the RCI..)
Dr. Hsu's forum 
Jul 26, 2011 @ 11:46:18
There are some very odd things about the RCI findings:
1) Since they were not there they could never be sure what actually happened. So how can they unanimously conclude suicide?
2). Their postulated accounts of what happened to drive TBH to suicide is all speculative with no supporting eyewitness account.
3) The psychological state of mind for TBH to commit suicide is not supported by psychiatrists whose opinions were sought in this case.
4) The RCI ignored physical signs which may point to homicide like the neck injuries, thigh injuries and anal injury.
5) How did TBH open the window and jumped without attracting the attention of his interrogators? Why didn’t they stop him?
We were not there either but any reasonable man will conclude it is very unlikely for Teoh to jump himself. The crime his boss was accused of is a minor one involving RM2400. Even if TBH was forced to implicate his boss and himself fairly or unfairly what is so terrible to make him suicidal? At worse they will be charged and defend themselves in court. Yet the RCI made a big play of such utter shame and guilt to drive him to suicide. We don’t need to be psychiatrists to know a man getting married the next day is not a candidate for suicide.
We can only conclude that what the RCI gave is a political decision required from them. They should hang their heads in shame.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 12:45:49
The members of the Foong Commission are shame to the Malaysian society. They have done Malaysians a big injustice. For this they and their families will carry the mark of shame for the rest of their lives. I am sorry (but not really) for them.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 12:59:11
Personally, i do not agree with the findings, but even with the findings, it would be enough to charge the perpetrators … Hence the above argument based on the RCI’s findings.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 13:24:43
Dr Hus. I was told by people Justice Foong is a no nonsense man. Lawyers that appeared before him, shivered in their boots. I am amazed by the result of the RCI. This was not what I would expect from such a man. If he can come out with such oitput, then there is no more integrity in the govt service. This govt and the civil service is rotten to the core.
Justice Foong has losed all credibility with the legal fraternity. Who would trust him?
Not me.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 13:38:23
Doc…..no lawyer can express better than your sensible post.
For donkey years…it is plain…judges can be bought.
It is what kind of cases and at what price.
However..if a judge can be bought to sell his soul for dirty politics….such a judge is the lowest kind of judges you can find.
It is a fact…money can buy loyalties and some dream ..money can buy up a country too.
“MONEY IS POWER” so said Mahathir and he encouraged corruptions for 22 years.
He is the real Devil.
Najib is a faithful adopted son.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 14:27:22
klm,
It is because of the sword of Damocles..
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 15:18:51
Dr Hsu . I disagree. A man of integrity will accept death before dishonour. Are there no honourable civil servant left in this country.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 15:35:30
I saw a few of the RCI clips on tv. Appeared that this fierce judge is quite one-sided. I was amazed at how he pumped at the locals, but when a kuei low was interrogated he kept too quiet for my comfort. I told my wife what a cari makan kaki from that scene. The conclusion as you see is as such. What a letdown show.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 16:44:07
The RCI’s conclusions are not acceptable to the family of the late TBH.
They were told and the people concerned were also told to accept the RCI verdict.
If there is a refute what is the next step to take in the name of justice?
Does the verdict imply that the 3 officers at MACC are to answer to the severe hand of the law?
Is there going to be a severe hand coming down on them?
If there an unseen hand behind this whole sad, tragic, pathetic ending?
Who is the ultimate culprit?
Will the soul and spirt of the late TBH rest in peace?
Will his family members live in peace ever after?
Are the real answers just like his spirit still floating in mid-air?
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 18:02:51
James Foong is a sitting judge, not a retired one. Asking a sitting judge to head the RCI is just plain wrong. He is still dependent on Umno for his position, pension and place of work. I suppose he does not want to be transferred to serve in the jungles of Sarawak.
Among the other members of the Foong Commission is a judge who ruled for Umno in the Perak power grab and a retired judge who was part of the tribunal which brought down Tun Salleh Abbas. Another is a govt pathologist who was roped in to lie on Kugan’s injuries after they had been exposed by another pathologist. None of the names proposed by Teoh’s family like retired judge NH Chan was included.
An RCI is only as good as the people who compose it and these were all Najib’s handpicked men.
LikeLike
Jul 26, 2011 @ 22:52:01
Kenny sure has his solid points but Dr Hsu,shall i share this posting(in BM) from LKS’ blog.It makes one to ponder and reason the ‘TBH RCI’ with more optimistic mind.Dr Hsu,you’re one of the best blogger with insightful reasoning and intellectual.Keep it up Doc.Wellcome back our gentle and dear Dr Hsu.
http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2011/07/26/mat-zains-open-letter-on-tbh-rci-report/
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 08:30:28
1. As the saying goes, politics is all about perception.
If people do not trust the authorities anymore, it does not matter what the
latter come up with — IAEA report, RCI on Teoh Beng Hock’s demise etc.
2. And as Niccolo Machiavelli wrote many years ago, the Prince’s actions should
not result in his people hating him (only fearing him). Once fear is replaced with contempt and hatred, that’s the end of the Prince and his rule.
3. Finally, Machiavell wote that the Prince should never touch his subjects’ property or their women. With the Lynas plant in Kuantan reducing the value of property in the area, even the MCA types are quietly funding the anti-Lynas activities.
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 08:34:18
One more comment, Machiavelli said that the Prince does not need to be a good person, only to appear to be good.
In the Malaysian context, one can modify this to another principle:
the Prince does not need to be an intelligent person, only to not appear as a fool to his subjects. (extend the term Prince to include Ministers)
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 11:18:07
Seems there is no other way to find out the truth in our beloved country. RCI tells us things which was told and are not accepted even by the layman. Justice is seldom seen to be done and all these while, PR had always called for RCI into many cases but now, we have seen RCI into 2 cases which are no-no for rakyat. One is the Police Act and now this Teoh’s case. They are now being taken very lightly and becoming a circus. Even our Royalty dont do anything to save us. God Save Us.
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 13:51:02
The RCI does not hv a time machine to go back in time to witness what actually happened. RCI can only ask questions and keep asking question and also refer to all the documents which might have been doctored. What can we expect out of RCI?
I feel very sad bad TBH tragic death. After a lot of thinking, I come to the following conclusion:
1. THB was being mentally ‘tortured’ to be turned against his boss, Mr Teoh decided to sacrificed himself to protect his dignity, integrity as a human and also shield his boss from accusations. It is part of Chinese culture to sacrifice oneself to serve the bigger purpose. We heard a lot of this kind of story from the Japanese occupation of Malaya. And we refer to China history for many heroes like that such as Kuantan Kong, Yeat Fei and so on. In this context, Mr Teoh died a hero in my mind. Mr Teoh is a hero of humanity.
Many people unconsciously expect justice for Mr Teoh from the RCI and we may be too naive to hv that expectation.
2. It was plain murder based on the fishy washy from the beginning to the end of the whole episode. Sometimes, when things went over complicated, application of common sense prevail. MACC does not hv any motive to wish Mr Teoh dies n MACC does not gain anything from that. We can use logic to proceed from here to arrive to the conclusion in this second scenario.
Either case, Mr Teoh is a hero. I did not know him before like I do not know all the heroes in history. Now, he is on my mind like Kuan Gong.
I like to remember Mr Teoh in this context. I will write about him in this context. I will tell his story in this context.
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 17:06:53
Yes, Teoh Beng Hock is a true Malaysian hero.
He held out till the end even under torture and did not sign any
(false) accusation against the PR government of Selangor.
As I mentioned elsewhere, he is Malaysia’s Jan Palach.
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 20:52:20
Anyone notice that Najib has gone cuckoo. From the day he arrived back from Rome, he has gone nuts.
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 21:09:08
James Foong is a smart lawyer n judge. But whether he is a man with integrity, you guess is good as mine. Obviously, he has done a good job as as BN is concern as he has dished out a verdict which could possibly absorbed all the burden from them as well as opened up a loophole for the trio to escape stiffer penalty. Anyway, our judiciary has no more credibility since old’s days. At such, I conclude that there is no use of having a 3rd force in politics as u will never win the war against a tyranny regime with logic reasoning. We need numbers to outlaw them in polls.
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 21:23:38
Comes GE-13, Pakatan need a huge win in order to sapu out all these nonsense.
Otherwise, there will be but more political instability and unrest in near future.
The problem is that now there are still people supporting MCA and Gerakan, when will they see that propping up an abusive and racist govt such as BeEnd, one which condones murder and abuse the govt institutions to their political end, will be detrimental to the country ?? Can they actually wake up ?
If Koh Tsu Koon still have any conscience, admit that there is something seriously wrong with the current govt !!
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 21:40:58
Najib is cornered from within UMNO and external pressures. He has no more cards to play except to seek for a fresh mandate to consolidate his position. Otherwise, he is a dead meat. The scenario is crystal clear judging from his struggling response to all allegations lately. His confidence disappeared completely. All the warlords were after his throne.
LikeLike
Jul 27, 2011 @ 21:53:51
Dear petestop
There will always be unprincipled people (many of the MCA, MIC, Gerakan types) who support a rotten regime because they personally benefit from such a system.
Logic and persuasion can only work on those who are principled (like Dr Hsu Dar Ren, Dr Toh Kin Woon etc who left Gerakan and became political independents). No point wasting our breath on the unprincipled.
Similarly, no point wasting our time on Perkasa-type racists and Fascists/Nazis.
Better to spend our time opening the eyes of ordinary people who have been fooled and continue to be fooled by the propaganda of the rotten regime.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 07:54:46
A detailed analysis of the RCI findings at LoyarBuruk:
The Teoh Beng Hock RCI: A Sham That Deceived Malaysia
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 08:19:54
Najib warning public that Oppositions are brain washing Malaysians at his
“Raise a flag” campaign speech at K.L.Sentral.
Opposition brain washing Malaysians?
That’s a new one from him…trying extremely hard to copy Mahathir by accusing others ….before being accused by others …with no brains.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 08:24:43
Najib does not appear to be a good politician or is not in control. Many things done by his subordinates are counter-productive and weaken him. A case in point is the detention of the PSM 6. There is no logical reason to hold them but the longer they are held the more political damage for Najib. Is he politically stupid or just not in control?
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 09:20:11
Paul E.Mullen..a emeritus professor of forensic psychiatry from Monash University hired by Bar Council said that the Royal Commissioners of Inquiry ignores the bulk of Teoh’s suicide risk assessments and said Teoh is being firmly in the lowest risk to commit suicide.
Read his wonderful argument at Malaysiakini blog which you can never read in papers.
It will be wonderful for Dr..Hsu to copy and paste it in his blog for youngsters to read ..who may not subscribe to read the full argument in Malaysiakini.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 09:32:03
kenny
I think you are right.
He was quite an efficient minister before, and his meetings were fast and no nonsense (unlike the sleepy head), quick to the point… and seldom display flip flopping that is so glaringly present nowadays.
I think he is facing internal dissent and there is a group that is trying to push him out.. This group may even use the handling of Bersih to discredit him… Of late, the Old Horse has been quite quiet, and the racist NGO did not even come out to oppose Bersih, except for a few members strolling in a Taman.. Why he needs to cut short his trip overseas? It is definitely not because of the French lawyer, for that one call to the DG of the relevant department would suffice.
If BN loses the next GE, he would not be PM.
But even if BN wins by a slim margin, he also would not be PM for long, since he would be forced out. The only one he can count on now is the Home Minister who is not very politically savvy… Even the Old Horse may now be secretly pushing for the No 2 to move up, in order to plan the ascendancy of his young horse..There might even be a deal behind the scene..
He may want to push for a more moderate policy consistent with is 1Malaysia, but the biggest saboteur is his own paper UM. He cannot move against these ultras since he is not strong enough and this ultras may now be in cohort to try to dictate terms or force him out. He cannot even arrest IA without forcing the hands of the ultras within his party..
A catch 22 situation he is in… With the uncertainty in world economy, and inflation rearing its ugly head, I think this is the best chance for PR…. If it does not shoot itself in the foot like so many times before..
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 10:12:34
There seems to be something going on in that coughing party. Seemed even that cowhead is now aligning himself to that cow call fella. Many kleptomaniacs in the coughing party are up in arms. That fat lady working with Syed Mokthar is grabbing all the mega projects. She is eating the whole pie and none left for others. This is the real cause of the uprising.
So I am not surprised Bersih was engineered to bring him down.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 11:00:16
klm
yes, as in many instances in history, a power crazy woman is often the cause of the downfall…
And oppostunists see this a a chance to fan emotions and make secret deals to move up.. Power equates money and riches… Unholy alliances are formed.. not for the good of the country but to help each other to move up or get some of the spoilts…
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 11:06:57
This analysis is from Malaysiakini:
RCI ignores bulk of Teoh’s suicide risk assessment
Kuek Ser Kuang Keng
Jul 28, 11
8:15am
ANALYSIS One of the main evidence used by the royal commission of inquiry (RCI) to back its controversial conclusion that DAP political aide Teoh Beng Hock had committed suicide was the psychiatric report submitted by psychiatrist Paul Edward Mullen.
A close look at the 11-page report submitted to the inquiry by Mullen – the emeritus professor of forensic psychiatry from Monash University hired by the Bar Council – found more factors pointing to Teoh not having committed suicide than otherwise.
This, however, seemed to have been overlooked and ignored by the RCI.
NONEIn his suicide risk assessment, Mullen classified Teoh as being firmly in the “lowest-risk group” when he was taken into Malaysia Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC) custody.
He did not conclude that Teoh had committed suicide, describing the DAP political aide as lacking all the factors usually shared among those liable to killing themselves.
Mullen wrote that he found Teoh had a regular employment, a partner whom he was soon to marry, had close family ties, a range of friends and colleagues, had not suffered a recent bereavement, and had no known financial problems.
“These are all social factors decreasing the risk of suicide. He was in early adult life (25-40 years), had no history of suicide attempts or self harm, did not gamble excessively, and had no family history of suicide. These are all factors which make suicide less likely.
“Teoh showed no evidence for a lowered mood, let alone depression, prior to being taken into custody, in fact, he appeared to have been more elated than usual because of the prospect of marriage and fatherhood,” said Mullen.
He also ruled out any “dysfunctional obsessional traits or unusual rigidity”.
“In my opinion, what we learned of Teoh’s personality and behaviour do not suggest any increased risk of suicide.”
It was also not stated anywhere in the report that Teoh had a “weak character”, as initially claimed by Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Mohd Nazri Aziz to back the RCI’s conclusion that Teoh had killed himself.
NONERetracting the remark about Teoh’s purportedly weak character soon after, Nazri conceded that the 124-page RCI report contained no reference to the matter, and blamed his error on the government officers who prepared his statement and who have drawn inferences from parts of the RCI report as well as Mullen’s report.
Mullen also said that if the purported ‘suicide note’ was not accepted by the RCI, it would significantly reduce the probability that Teoh had committed suicide.
The RCI report had rejected the note on the ground that the handwriting in the samples used to compare with the Chinese handwriting in the note could not be conclusively proved to be that of Teoh’s.
The RCI had also excluded the evidence given by MACC officers that Teoh was cooperative and had voluntarily chosen to remain in the MACC building after the interrogation.
That, said Mullen, would further decrease the chances of suicide.
They had to frighten him literally to death
However, Mullen also specify some factors that could elevate Teoh from low-risk to high-risk in suicide.
Although he recognised increased risk of suicide for an individual being held in custody and charged with serious criminal offences, Mullen noted that Teoh was not charged and his witness statement did not seem to implicate him or anyone else with offences.
“This is not a context which, in my experience, leads to suicide in custody. There seems no reason for a rational individual who had made such a statement to conclude he had shamed himself or betrayed his colleagues.
“There is nothing of which I have been made aware to explain panic and distress sufficient to drive him to conclude his honour had been irreparably tarnished,” read the report.
azlanOut of the 37 paragraphs in the report, Mullen discussed the factors increasing the risk of suicide in only three paragraphs towards the end of the report.
“His concern for his family, and for his future wife and mother of his child, could have been turned into a weapon against him by a totally unscrupulous interrogator, as could his loyalty and sense of responsibility to his colleagues.”
Mullen argued that certain interrogation techniques could be used to destroy a person’s mental stability and induce such fears that even death seems preferable.
“Particularly vulnerable to such techniques would be a law abiding citizen with no prior experience of being in the power of apparently unconstrained authority, particularly if they were cut off from all contact with sources of help and support,” Mullen added, referring to Teoh, whose mobile phone were confiscated during his custody under MACC.
“If he did kill himself, in my opinion, things are likely to have occurred both to undermine his psychological stability and to frighten him literally to death,” read the conclusion of the report.
It was this part that the RCI quoted to strengthen its postulations that the “aggressive, relentless, oppressive and unscrupulous” interrogations had driven Teoh to kill himself.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 11:23:53
I think Dr. Hsu is right – Najib is facing dissent within Umno. There is a clear pattern of a strategy to weaken him and push him out.
The faction is probably led by the Old Horse in collusion with No. 2. The plan is to deny Najib another term and push up No.2 who will be a seat warmer for the son of the Old Horse.
Now here’s the interesting part. The anti-Najib faction cannot allow Najib to get back 2/3 majority in the next G.E. or he will entrench himself. Hence they will work to weaken Najib and the sort of election cheating necessary to demolish PR will not be allowed. The Old Horse still controls many of the instruments of power.
Of course the anti-Najib faction cannot weaken Najib too much or they may lose the crown. They walk a fine line.
The 13th G.E. is actually a David vs. Goliah battle. But while the two Goliaths are battling each other there may be a chance for PR to sneak in and run away with the crown.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 11:25:30
Malaysia needs a thorough de-nazification (oops, I mean de-mahathirization) in the future after a regime change.
Tunku Abdul Rahman was right about him all along.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 11:34:02
LOGICALLY SPEAKING IF TBH WAS CONTEMPLATING SUICIDE HE WOULD
HAVE GRABBED AT LEAST ONE OF THOSE MURDERS AROUND HIM TO DIVE
THRU THE WINDOW TOGETHER. IF I AM IN TBH’S SITUATION I WILL SUBMIT TO EVERTHING THOSE MURDERS WANTED BUT LATER CAME BACK TO GET
THOSE MURDERERS ONE BY ONE.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 11:53:14
Criminal cases can always be re-opened/re-tried later.
Dead men (i.e. their bones and other physical remains) do tell tales.
The TBH case (and all those other cases of suspicious deaths) only increases the revulsion of all decent-minded people.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 12:24:02
Any decent man (I don’t even talk about being ‘principled’ here) will not swallow anything unreasonable, illogically or defied natural justice, but ‘they’ expect us to swallow.
This is their mentality. How ‘they’ expect us to give our votes to them? We need to stop it once and for all.
Anyone here knows who are ‘they’, even those with no decency, the murder(s).
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 13:05:49
Many thanks.. dear doctor…for granting my request.
LikeLike
Jul 28, 2011 @ 13:20:37
Najib is at his loose ends.
The old Najib is gone..but that does not mean the old Najib was a better man.
It was he felt vastly confident…the foundation laid down by Mahathir will make Malaysians weak enough and disunited.. to keep depending on UMNO B so call…generosity…brain washing Muslims more than others.
He flipped… flopped so much…he will be flipping himself out.
Yip….maybe …just maybe UMNO B can win 13th GE with a mall margin..and Najib will be saved and packed out like Richard Nixon….then Atlantuya have to wait for 14th GE.
Whatever the outcome of 13th GE…a change of government is the cry so loud and clear…..no amount of hanky panky wIth votes can keep saving UMNO B….forever.
LikeLike
Jul 29, 2011 @ 07:43:56
Dr Hsu,
With due respect, but I feel you started off very badly with this sentence early in your opinion article:-
“He was either pushed out of the window or he jumped himself.”
Such a conclusion immediately discounts other possibilities.
The normal understanding of “pushed out of the window” is that he was pushed out intentionally. Pushing someone out of the window from the 14th floor of a high rise building would mean an intent to kill, unless the victim happens to be a movie stuntman which TBH was not. I personally don’t believe the MACC scoundrels intended to kill TBH by pushing him out of the 14th floor window because such an act does not serve the main purpose of the MACC which is to help UMNO destroy the credibility of the PR Selangor State government. The nature of TBH’s death had actually cause harm to the UMNO cause.
I personally go for the theory that the MACC scoundrels were trying to force TBH into making a false confession statement by scaring the shit out of him. Among the acts of scaring the shit out of him was the final one where they forced him onto the window ledge, in this tragic case, most likely a little too far off the edge.
Of course the MACC scoundrels will never admit to this because even without intention to actually push him out, which would have been cold blooded murder, accidentally making him fall to his death from such sadistic interrogation procedure is still culpable homicide.
However, I agree with you 100% that he did not commit suicide.
LikeLike
Jul 29, 2011 @ 10:22:40
Ong,
Your point is taken.
Thanks..
LikeLike
Jul 30, 2011 @ 11:42:24
There was something wrong about the first post-mortem. When we do post-mortem, neck is a crucial part to inspect as this is where the airway is. In TBH cases, a post-mortem examination was carried out with almost total omission of the neck. It is hard to imagine 2 pathologist consultant would have done this kind of mistake. Therefore the likely reason is they missed it purposely based on the true story they got (i.e. TBH might have been strangled etc.)
LikeLike